CD

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I'm starting to think that arguing about taxation is like winning the Special Olympics.

This might actually be my last thread regarding politics until after the election...

I'm all for tax cuts. I mean, who isn't? However, it seems that if the government was run more like a household, there would be some type of order on what to do next. Call me crazy, but it makes sense to me to cut down on wasteful spending, and get government streamlined, before you start giving tax cuts away. Hell, if the national debt wasn't there our currency would be worth so much more, you wouldn't need to push for tax cuts. But every single president who runs on tax cuts and gets elected seems to get us more and more into debt. I know the problem is with both Dems and Reps in office, but it has just seemed to me over the years that the debt has increased more while a Republican was in office. With that being said, I'm perfectly ok with someone like McCain being in office if he can actually fix things. What I'm not ok with is if he gets elected and does help in that area while also fucking us over with lifting the ban on offshore drilling and not pushing for energy independence.

I think most of you know my position on not wanting the oil companies to get their way, but if not, here's a recap:

1) Oil companies are not looking out for us. They are looking out for their own pockets, and if that means promising us good times for a few years by lowering prices - they will... but I KNOW that after a few years of lower gas prices and less American focus on alternative energies, they will fuck us bad. REALLY BAD.

2) When car companies exist like APTERA, this country needs these companies to not get buried under the shit oil companies might say if the bans are lifted (which seems to be the case if either gets elected). Why can they make a 150+ mpg car and Honda, Toyota, Nissan, GM, and others can't even come close to 80? And the funny thing is that not only is it super efficient, I also think it looks a lot closer to the car of the future since current car companies seem to want to stick with the same old boxy look.

So hopefully when whoever gets elected, we as a country will be able to tell the oil companies to go fuck themselves while also raising the value of the US Dollar by getting rid of the debt. And for as long as I can remember, getting rid of the debt has NEVER been accomplished with a Republican President, so for that alone, I'm leaning towards Obama.

*A little off subject, but since it's my own thread I suppose it's ok, but here are the things that I'm putting my focus on for the upcoming election:

1) Debt. It affects the country more then most care to admit, and yet nobody talks about it. The economy is great a great talking point and all, but how about using some of the taxes you collect and pay that shit off?!?!

2) Alternative Energy. As long as we are dependent on oil, this country will never truly be out from under the boot of powerful oil companies.

3) Education. Forget all the bullshit of throwing money at the problem and hoping it gets better. I have said it before and I'll say it again... this country needs to focus on education almost more then anything else. Want to know who can fix the economy? Smart people. Want to know who can find creative ways of making this country energy self sufficient? Smart people. Because of that, I'd like to see teachers unions go bye-bye. Let's judge teachers based on merit, and how about we finally pay them what they deserve?!

4) Long term solutions. This means that we don't pick sides in the middle east or elsewhere, unless it's the right choice. As in, let's pick the side that's right, and not the side that's "right now". This also means that we have a plan for the energy grid of America and the future direction of transportation for consumers and businesses. 30 mpg cars just aren't cutting it anymore, when the technology exists now to put 200 mpg cars on the road. Oh, and I know that coal power plants are bad (just ask the air above China), but if we do move more towards nuclear, I want to know that the spent rods are going to be safe and shielded... and not in my backyard. ;=)

I'm sure I can think of more things, but right now I need to go get groceries... hopefully less then my last visit when I dropped $130, but I doubt it.

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licupssy

Not what I would really call practical or affordable. Not only is the innital cost way to high for a small vehicle that only goes 120 round trip but also charging the 10KWh battery pack is really going to increase your monthly electric bill. Then there is the possible $3000 battery replacement every 2 to so years(just guessing using reference to the battery pack used in the Camry hybrid). Just think what the large SUV model will cost.

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I solemnly swear that I am up to no good! ~~~SWTWC

thecowboy

Huh? No mention of the president's role in raising revenue?

joerockhead

Well, I do have to agree with many items CD has stated, but first - If you start using numbering of Paragraphs, stay consistent. Don't start 1, then 2. and then change a paragraph, and go 1,2,3,etc. It makes it hard to comment.

I agree with much of the opening Paragraph. Whom ever wins must get us energy independent (and in less then 10 years), initiate refunds for Citizens getting clean energy (Solar / Wind) and working to get many more systems installed.

I also agree that our Debt is a huge Problem. Neither member has mentioned much about it. But getting Congress to spend more wisely is hard. Neither has done it while in Congress!!!!

I agree that the Oil companies only care about the $$

I also agree education needs to be more important, but not with Free college.
Families need to impress upon the children how important Education is. Getting a good start at a young age will help far more then Free College if the kids are not smart enough to get to College.

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Visit the worlds best website -
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CD

Yeah. A car that only gets 120 miles per trip would never be practical for me. Oh wait... I drive only 10 miles to work round trip. Ok, I also saw that with current costs in California, "filling up" is about $1-2 overnight. Now with someone like me, I could probably get to work and back the entire week before I need to drop $2 on the car. So the monthly electric bill REALLY isn't an issue. As far as the battery goes, this is from aptera's website:

You're guessing about the battery replacement? I'd say lets wait and see before we start trying to discourage that option.

And for the large SUV model, two of the reasons they suck at mpg is that they are really large/heavy and horribly aerodynamic. I never said the aptera was the solution, but it's a hell of a better step in the right direction then anything the major car companies have done.

This whole thing isn't about the sticker shock... once this idea and technology is embraced and improved upon, it will be no different then what today's potential car buyer is seeing. So although $30,000 isn't cheap, to be able to drive a car that gets such good mpg, is a conversation piece, and saves you hundreds of dollars worth of gas a year, I wouldn't say it's all that expensive either. Remember licu... cost is relative, and some would love to get that car just for the stares they will get driving it around town.

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CD

Fair enough. I'll try to do that if the opportunity arises again.

The debt... yes, both sides suck at this but I'd really like to see us with a surplus paying of the debt before we start cutting taxes. Because we all pretty much know that any cut in taxes right now can't be backed up by a decrease in congressional spending. Congress just doesn't roll that way.

Yep. Oil companies are evil. Just think of how many beneficial things we'd have today if they weren't buried or "eliminated" by the evil empire.

I never said college had to be free. I just know that there is a way this country can really make the education system shine, and I'm open to hear how it's gonna be done. Fixing the K-12 schools would be something I'd love to see in my lifetime... less talking back from students (starts at home!), less violence, more focus, more respect and pay for teachers, fewer to zero unions keeping bad teachers there, etc...

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shiiboi

The dilemma is always tax cuts for whom?

In unregulated free market capitalism, there is always a wholesale transfer of wealth from the many to the few (that's the definition of 'profit' isn't it?) When the wealth disparity becomes too great, the system collapses on itself (i.e. recessions, depressions).

Progressive tax systems were implemented during the FDR administration to capture some of the wealth concentration and pump it back into the economy, preferably spent on 'public' goods (things which the society needs, like infrastructure, but the free market doesn't provide). The hope was that public spending of some of the wealth rather than allowing it all to become ultra-concentrated in the hands of a few would prevent depressions. It worked pretty well for 40 years, actually.

But starting with the Reagan administration, the tax structure shifted to offload some of the taxation away from the wealthiest on to the middle class. Government spending was shifted from 'public' works to direct payments to private interests ('earmarks' 'corporate welfare'). The theory was that wealthy people had acquired their money because they were smart, and so were better equipped to spend their money in ways that would boost the economy than politicians.

So now, the tax system supports the capitalist wealth transfer from the many to the few again, and we have the same huge disparity in wealth between the richest 1% and the middle class that existed right before the great depression.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." -George Santayana 1905


Gee, it looks an awful lot like Buckminster Fuller's Dymaxion car, designed in 1933.

Similar cars were designed during the oil crisis in the 1970's.

And don't forget GM's EV1 from the 1990s.

And here we are again. Most of the patents for efficient, long-range rechargeable batteries are locked away in ExxonMobil's vaults where they will never see the light of day (ExxonMobil quietly bought the patents from their inventors during times of low fuel costs).

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." -George Santayana 1905


The reason K-12 teachers are underpaid is because their salaries come out of school board budgets, which are derived from property taxes. Citizens with school-aged children believe in paying higher taxes for better schools. Everyone else in the community votes against school budget increases to prevent property tax increases.

Teachers' unions keep teacher pay from being even lower. In 'union-free' districts, salaries are extremely low and student performance even lower. Unions don't support teacher incompetence-- incompetent teachers stay employed either because they're politically connected, or the pay offered is too low to attract better teachers.

Sometimes local districts get so bad that a larger entity, i.e. the state steps in. When they take over the administration becomes bloated with patronage jobs and some well-connected teachers get big raises. All the other teachers salaries remain low and there's rarely ever any improvement in student outcomes.

Private schools fare better than public schools in student outcomes, but teacher salaries are rarely better (and often worse) than public schools. Calls for eliminating the public school system and privatizing k-12 education forget that public education was implemented specifically because the free market failed to provide universal education.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." -George Santayana 1905


Yeah, that'll happen. The trend has been in the direction of extremely short-term, and often short-sighted thinking. Corporations used to make 5-year plans, now they focus on the coming fiscal quarter. Politicians used to plan for the next generation, now they plan for the next election.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." -George Santayana 1905

We need someone with a 'big picture' world view, but where will he/she come from?

ravenshrike

Whohooo, conspiracy theory times. Care to show us those patents? Being patents, they are public records. Unless you're positing that they paid the inventors not to patent and use their inventions, in which case anybody else could file a patent on the same subject matter. This is reminiscent of the 100 mpg carb, which would violate the laws of thermodynamics.

thecowboy

I think he's saying that GM has the designs, not the patents, as in: it would be patented if gm didn't buy them. This also assumes there is no one else in the country (or world) who could come up with the same design.

For the record, I don't believe any of it.

CD

I didn't say give tax cuts... I just said that I like them. But if my options were to get one and have things get worse, or not get one and the debt is paid off... then sign me up for that smaller debt.


That's cause nobody wants to give up anything for the common good. This is a society of "me, me, me." Everyone knows that we need good teachers, police officers, and firemen, but nobody wants to pay for it, until the shit hits the fan. Hell, I remember years ago when the bridge collapsed, and improving the infrastructure and bridges were a top priority... for a while! Then you have a few months ago, both McCain and Clinton talking about the gas tax holiday which basically cut taxes... that go for infrastructure! It was about the most retarded thing I ever heard, but people are so short sighted that most forgot about why those taxes were (and still are) important. I've even heard most high level economists talk about how improving your country's infrastructure is one of the best things you can do since the money stays "in-house" along with the benefits of such repairs.



I have no idea, but neither Obama nor McCain seem to be the answer, and that is pretty saddening.

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joerockhead

This is so true. But if someone came up with the long term, then they would not even be in the running. No one wants to wait that long. Greed.

Also, now if a politician says it will take 10 years, it is because they are gone if it fails.




This is very sad but true too.



My only question - Should I have to pay taxes for a School system, when I have NO kids at all?

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Visit the worlds best website -
www.badass67.com - Black Sunshine

shiiboi

That depends on whether you have enough cash saved in your mattress to support yourself in your old age without social security and if any private retirement savings you have in stocks/mutual funds turn into worthless paper.

No matter how 'independent' you consider yourself, modern humans are entirely 'interdependent' on each other. You depend on an economically successful society to insure that there will be food on the supermarket shelves when you are hungry, that there will be electricity to power your lights and a fuel supply to heat your home. Short-sighted selfishness will always come back to bite you in the ass later.

Helping to pay for education is your insurance policy that the next generation entering the work force will be able to sustain the society you depend on for your very survival when you are no longer able to actively participate.

shiiboi

I suggest you find and watch this documentary:
"Who Killed the Electric Car"

It's about the GM EV1 electric car & how the oil companies lobbied it out of existence. Inventors who registered patents on products (including batteries) to extend its range etc. are interviewed and explain how when interest in alternative vehicles died-- the only option they had was to sell their companies and patents to Texaco-- who promptly shut them down and locked the patents away.

No conspiracy theories here. Large companies in all industries routinely buy up technologies that may become competition for themselves in the