HEY YOU!!!,
Our records indicate that you have never posted to our site before! Why not make your first post today by saying hello to our community in our new people forums.
To access all the good good stuff you need to post, post, and post more.
I didn’t get a chance to give my input on this subject, so I am going to start this thread again. FYI - Some peoples views of what is and isn’t "on topic" differ, so if it seems remotely off topic, put it in a spoiler. Maybe that will appease the forum gods.......
I've served our country for 8 years in the Marines (active for 4, inactive for 4), I get out in June this year. So I'm more than qualified to have a discussion about this.
The following is my military life in a small nutshell. If you want to read it, thanks, it will help you see this through another light.
If you haven’t been through Marine Corps Boot camp (or perhaps another branch), you will not be able to relate to what I am saying, but I will try and "civilianize" it for you. In Boot camp, they take you and turn you into the shit that comes from the assholes of the scum of the earth. Why do they do this? So they can take advantage of your weak, young mind and change it to see everything from their point of view. They pretty much take the person that you were and flush it down the toilet. Their final product is to basically, do what your told and don’t ask questions, even if it means your death. Your defending your country remember?? It’s like Christianity, follow our values and ideals, or we will destroy you by sending you to hell. Now, while you won’t usually get hung or stoned in the Marines, they can destroy the rest of your life with a simple Dishonorable Discharge. In boot camp they lead you to believe that if you want to quit, you will never be able to do anything with the rest of your life because you will be labeled a failure to everyone. In all actuality, until you graduate, you can tell them to shove it, you quit. And nothing will go on any record.
Fortunately, my brain didn’t get washed enough, so I was able to recover. But I know of a lot of people who have stayed in for the simple fact of being afraid to go back to the civilian world. That’s another trick they pull on you. They get you so dependent on the military to tell you where to go and what to do, you are afraid to have to go out and live on your own.
I never had to go to Iraq, but I only didn’t because I knew a Master Sgt who knew the monitor, the person who cuts orders for Marines to change duty stations. I told them I was doing college and that a duty station change would screw it up, but I really just didn’t want to go die in another country. I joined the Marines for the college money, there was no 9-11, no terrorist shit, I was just trying to get some college money and a good lesson in self discipline.
I am going to take this chance to reply to the posts from the first winter soldier thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerockhead
The Problem with this is that it is only ONE sided. There is a Small percentage of people that commit the crimes, there is a small percentage of people that are racist, and there are only a small percentage of people that are truly this bad.
The military is very much a reflection of our society. There are FAR more good, decent, honest people in the Military, then depicted at Winter Soldier.
If everyone thinks that ALL of the military are like this, or that ALL of the War Zone is like this, then they are either ignorant or liars.
Yes, some of this shit happens.
It happens here in the States too!! With Military and with Civilians.
Many of the Military that act that bad ARE punished. Just because the Media does not talk about it, does not mean it is not being worked on.
I don’t think anyone believes that every member of our military acts like this. The 10% are always the face of the military though (10% of 3 million is still a lot of sick individuals). But, unless you are over there, or have been in the military and bored with your buddies, you really have no idea the shit that gets done. One of the guys in my platoon in Quantico caught a groundhog and wanted to kill it by cutting its feet off then running it over with a hummer. Fortunately I caught wind of it and was a higher rank, so I ordered him to let the groundhog go.
We found a dead deer when doing patrol exercises in infantry training. One of the Marines took the butt of his rifle and pulverized its head.
The hard part is that you cant take that to anyone and have them do something to the Marine. They will brush it off as a Young Marine being a Marine.
Can you imagine what goes through these kids minds when given live ammo and told to kill?
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerockhead
And, if you are on the Fence of the War, and you suddenly change your mind and want to protest the war due to this....Then you have NOT done all of your homework.
War Sucks. This War Sucks. But we cannot just leave now. We MUST ensure this country has a real chance of survival After we depart.
We've overstayed our welcome and done more harm than good. What else do you want for reasons to leave? How many more people have to die before you war supporters and our government will admit that you can defeat terrorism by killing everyone? I get sick of fucking civilians saying that "War Sucks" (Joe, if your a vet, I'm sorry I didnt know). Put your ass on the line and see how your views on it change. I have plenty of friends who were in Iraq and Afghanistan that will attest to that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigme
I agree. The point is that it is very difficult to regulate and enforce these things. If you don't think that a war zone increases someone's likelihood of behaving negatively in these fashions, you are crazy. Do you propose we just increase military police exponentially? It does us no good to spread democracy or whatever idealistic front any war has if the inhabitants hate us afterwards.
HA! Most of the MP's I knew were just as fucked up in the head as the other guys. The inhabitants in every invasion we have spearheaded have hated us even before we left. Now, while I cannot blame the US for all of that hate, we do not help it by killing innocent human beings and other creatures, accidental or not. Smart bombs aren’t as smart as they portray them to be.
How many of you guys have actually served or worked for the military?
This type of behavior in war is not uncommon. It's how the world was founded. Slavery, rapes, killing off native people. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. But, like JRH has pointed it out, the same people serving there is a reflection of who our people are here.
The US is racist, rapes happen every day, and people get killed every few minutes. Just last night there was a pretty wicked gun fight within ear shot of me...the glory of living in Iraq...err, I mean, East LA
So, we should just turn the other shoulder and chalk it up to god calling his children home? Your attitude is an attitude that causes this type of shit in the first place. You live in East LA, ok. you know the shit that happens there, yet you still choose to stick around. At least you have the opportunity to get in your car and leave whenever you've had enough of it. When we invade a country, we close that bitch off so no one can get in or out. Well, we try to do that, but unless we all held hands in a perimeter, people will find a way. Its not so easy to walk across a desert with all of your belongings.
Now to have this being done in another country? O mon dieu! Tourist do this same shit in other countries.
I get a chuckle out of people who claim we should withdraw all of our troops and protect ourselves right here, yet have a problem with the US turning into a police state or a nanny state or whatever term gets tossed around.
What do you want? For more buildings to get blown up? More blood on our own soil?
Terrorism is a cancer. Cancer gets cut off and if you need to kill off a few good cells to make sure the whole thing goes away, so be it.
So your saying that we cant have our troops back with out us becoming a police state? I must chuckle at that myself as I shake my head in despair.
You cant stop Terrorism by killing people. That in itself causes more people to join the cause. So now you have people trying to defend their home, but being labeled as terrorists by a foreign government because they kill the invading soldiers. If say, China, invaded us because we weren’t a communist country and tried to convert everyone through force, wouldn’t you resist? In Iraq, we just call it Democracy, not communism. You can deny it all day, I will prove you wrong, but our foreign policy and practices caused the 9-11 attacks. We took advantage of them for too long, we paid the price.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 93crawler
I've stayed away from this part of the forum for quite some time now, but thought I'd add my thoughts. The actions of a few can't be used to judge something as vast as the US military. There are countless atrocities in war, Abu Ghurayb comes to mind as an example. And although these acts are inexcusable, the military in general is made of up decent people who go where they are told to go, and do what they are told to do. This latest example isn't going to sway your opinion about this war, nor is this this thread. Opinions and individuals stances on this war don't change, as much as their stance on religion doesn't change either.
That being said, this statement--"The military is very much a reflection of our society," isn't necessarily that accurate. The military is largely made up of young kids who came from a poor background, and are trying to make a better life for themselves by taking advantage of what the military has to offer, namely in the way of college tuition. It is also overwhelmingly Republican, and also very much a southern based entity---in that more kids in the military come from the South, than anywhere else.
The whole withdraw/stay debate is also one in which your overall opinion isn't going to change much. But, I really don't see what staying there much longer is going to accomplish? This statement,"We MUST ensure this country has a real chance of survival After we depart," has some merit, but it is the Iraqi's themselves who ultimately will determine whether their newly-formed democracy will succeed or fail. We are largely fulfilling a police role now, and our military isn't the Iraqi police. Honestly, what more are we supposed to ask of our military? They have done their job, the majority of them should be able to return home.
I don't think anyone who has voiced their opposition to the war has suggested turning the US into a police state? Bush hasn't exactly been the greatest proponent of individual freedom, but I don't consider the US a police state. Juan, are you suggesting that turning the US into a police state would somehow curb terrorist actions? Because it actually has quite the opposite outcome in most instances. And Juan, I thought you were better than this--"What do you want? For more buildings to get blown up? More blood on our own soil?" are you trying to do the whole Iraq, Al Qaeda link, that has been disproven over and over and over again. If anything, Iraq has made our security situation worse in the world, and in particular the Middle East. Iran is now more powerful than ever, and Al Qaeda is stronger than ever.
Terrorism is definitely something that needs to be fought, but we are using the wrong instrument to fight it. The CIA, counter-intelligence agencies, and special ops are what we should be using to fight terrorism, and not the US Army, and Marines.
Notice how I didn't use any derogatory terms or insults, like liberal, or redneck or anything that hampers discussion on this issue. I am well capable of busting those sorts of terms out, as I'm sure Juan remembers, but let's try to keep the discussion on track for a change.
Excellent post my friend. Our men and women have done their jobs 3-4 times over out there in the desert, they deserve to come home and see their families, for good. I've got a high school buddy in the Army that just got Stop-loss'ed and sent back over there for a 3rd time. Fucking bullshit if you ask me.
I wont mention any names as not to get "personal", but your points couldn’t be argued against, so the thread was closed. Seems to be a trend lately.
I'm assuming this thread will be closed within a few days, I'm actually surprised it hasn't been closed already. This "issue" is a large part of the reason I just don't contribute in this part of the forum any longer.
I'll give you a chance to edit the drama and the opportunity to erase the stuff about the modding around here. If you wish to discuss the less than average modding, do so in the bottom of the hole where no one cares.
If its not removed I will close it.
I'm not here to let you break the rules, I'm here to enforce them.
I will erase this message if the mistake is corrected, otherwise, the actions already mentioned will occur.
Gave you plenty time and see you are busy PMing me. Thread closed. If you wish to start another one, discuss the topic and not the modding around here please.
04-16-2008, 02:30 AM
|
quote
|
Winter Soldier v.2
Linear Mode
