michaeljohn

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June 1876, AKA Custer's Last Stand. First off, as will be seen, not every soldier of the 7th Calvary perished. I had a great book on this, called Custer's Luck that I have read countless times. I donated it to a school library so others may enjoy it as I did. The book was researched in depth and all facts were pretty much covered. I may be remiss on a few facts, but I have the scenario pretty well intact.

Ok, the Sioux and Cheyenne had left their reservations and camped out in the Rose Bud, near the Little Big Horn River, in southern Montana, thousands strong. To the Native Americans, this area was known as "The Greasy Grass". The US Army sent 3 contingents to force them back to the reservations. The first, commanded by a man I can't recall, came fom the south and was stalemated in his attack, which was well ahead of the other two commands. They retreated back to Wyoming, the Native Americans marched north, filled with "Good Medicine". General Terry came from the north, while Colonel George Armstrong Custer and the 7th Calvary arrived from the east. They were all supposed to converge at the same time.

Custer overestimated his chances. First, he wanted to arrive first and win the battle on his own. Motives were the first US Centennial celebration, and a possible Presidential Nomination at the upcoming Democratic convention. Not to mention to build on his mystique and reputation. As a result, he pushed his troops hard, by the time they got there early, the men and horses were exhausted. Also, he disregarded his Crow scout's warning that the village was too big and no one would come out alive. He also felt that any Indian village under attack would scatter and not turn around and fight. The terrain was not suited for a Calvary charge, the chief strength of such a force. Sabers were needed for this, and they were left behind when the march west started.

Custer arrived just south of the village, and still couldn't see it, or at any point, how big it was. His next mistake was to begin dividing his command. He sent Captain Benteen and either 2 or 3 troops off to the side to search for the village, then he rode north. He found the southern end of the village. He then divided again, giving orders to Major Reno and 2 or 3 troops to attack directly, while he rode north with 5 troops to attack the Indians from the other end and force them to scatter. The last troop of the 7th remained way behind, guarding the slow-moving supply trains. Custer found the middle of the village, and dispatched Trooper Martin, an Italian immigrant with poor English skills, to summon Captain Benteen to join him immediately.

Reno then began his attack. To make a long story short, Reno didn't get far, and quickly gave his troops the order to retreat. the fallback was disorderly and caused unneccessary casualties. They made it to the top of "Reno Hill" and set up a defensive post. Reno maintained in the official inquiry that had he continued his attack, his entire command would have been wiped out. Who knows? He did disobey the order to attack with his retreat. However, retreating hurt Custer. The Indians knew where he was. Led by Chief Gall, many engaged with Reno left to go north to pursue Custer.

Custer then divided his troops again, 3 with him, 2 to the south. From the north, the Cheyenne, led by Chief Crazy Horse, came on in full strength. Across the Little Big Horn river came more Sioux. Custer's troops were quickly surrounded and died to the last man.

Captain Benteen did get Custer's message to join him, but when he arrived near the battle scene, he disobeyed orders and joined Major Reno. He led an organized retreat, and the remaining 7th calvarymen hunkered down on Reno Hill. the Indians still pestered them for 2 days, but weren't able to defeat them. Soon, the Indians left their camp, as word that General Terry was coming from the north. Terry's troops discovered the fate of Custer's troops, reunited with the survivors under Benteen and Reno, and the rest is history.

Ok, time for some what ifs:

1) What if Reno had continued his attack? He either would have been wiped out, or joined by Benteen for reinforcements, sparing pressure on Custer. Now Custer has a southern escape route at his disposal. Custer could then help Reno and Benteen.

2) Or Reno's command gets wiped out, followed by Benteen's, then Custer's. By the time General Terry arrives, the Indians are quite on a roll and take them out as well, and it will be months before the truth of the battle comes out. All facts will not be known, many unanswered questions still exist from Custer's fight. See, the Indians that participated in the battle, fearing reciprocation, told the white man what he wanted to hear. Also, the Native American warrior doesn't view the battle as one large conflict, but as that of individual performance.

3) Benteen obeys orders and heads for Custer. Benteen attacks Gall. Custer then has a choice, support Benteen or push on. The former choice seems more prudent, and Custer's command will probably survive. The latter choice may get everyone killed. Galls force took out 2 companies under Custer, about what Benteen had.


Thoughts and opinions are welcome. Let's hear them, Armchair Generals!

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joerockhead

A very interesting read. I had never really got into the battle that much. I always knew the movie was lame. And even though I never had proof, as I got older, I always had heard that Custer was a poor leader.
If your info is correct, that supports my statement.

However, what you did not include was additional info on Reno. How long was he on Reno Hill before he was joined by Benteen?
if it was a single day, then Maybe they would have survived a full attack.
if it was several days, more then likely, they would have all died, followed by Benteen.
And even if Benteen did retreat, he too would have lost due to the numbers.

it is too bad that the White men destroyed the American Indians.

I am glad none of my Family is not heritage to that.
(arrived in the US in the late 1890's).

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michaeljohn

Reno and Custer started the fight at about the same time, with Reno going first. As I said, he didn't fight long, perhaps 15 minutes before retreating.

Reno was retreating when joined by Benteen. Many of Reno's command did not make it back until nightfall. Theoretically, Benteen had a chance to join Custer and arrive about the same time as Gall was. Now it would be Custer's southern troops plus Benteen vs. Gall. A later arrival and Custer's southern two troops would be gone and instead of Gall going after Custer, he would have had to have headed after Benteen. Then Custer has his choice, as explained above.

The length of Custer's battle lasted approximately 30 to 60 minutes. I think he was 2 miles north of Reno. Reno's troops knew Custer was engaged. They heard the gunshots, which eventually dwindled down to nothing.

More what ifs. Suppose Custer retreated and halted Gall. He could really ruin both Benteen and Reno for disobeying orders. I kind of believe both had it in for Custer and left him to his fate. Major Weir wanted to leave the Reno/Benteen contingent to join Custer but was denied permission. Although young, he survived the battle, but passed away later that year, a broken man from the conflict.

Also, another big what if that wasn't considered at the time. Had the US Calvary not engaged the tribes in battle, and simply asked the Indians to return peacefully to the reservations, they would have. They confirmed this later.

Another excellent book on all this is titled Son of the Morning Star. I had this, but donated it as well some years back. Ever hear of a city in South Dakota called Sturgis? There was a soldier with this name that died with Custer. I will add more facts I can recall if this thread has interest. More fun testing my memory than googling for it

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michaeljohn

More facts I recall:

I believe Custer's command had 11 or 12 troops. Each troop had maybe 40 men, possibly less. Slightly under 200 men died with Custer, but the exact numbers aren't known, the troop rolls were looted along with everything else. I think they counted 189 bodies, but some had been dismemberd and were found in the village. They could have come from anywhere. The troops were labeled by letter, and he definitely had an L-Troop. (Letter 12). It was commanded by his brother-in-law (his name escapes me, but he was known as the "Adonis" of the company for his good looks) and the first to go under by Gall. Custer commanded C-Troop. I am certain F-Troop and E-Troop were with Custer. Can't remember the troop that died with L-Troop, but it probably was G-Troop as they rode Grey Sorrel horses and were also known as the Grey Sorrel Troop.

That leaves 7 troops. One stayed behind with the pack trains, leaving 6 troops. I don't think both Reno and Benteen had 3 troops each, I seem to recall a 2 and 3 split. There may not have been an I-Troop I seem to recall, it could be confused with L-Troop. Many men enrolled in Custer's troops did make it back alive to Reno Hill. Their horses broke down after leaving Reno and headed back to where they came. Some of the stragglers were caught by the Indians, they were all on foot. The last man to make it out of Custer's command alive was Trooper Martin, he had a horse and didn't come close to running into Gall. I can only presume that Martin found Benteen about the time Reno attacked. Benteen got back to the diverging point while Reno was retreating, so chances are he would have engaged Gall if he headed for Custer's position. However, G and L-Troops would have to be still hanging on in order to counter attack from two sides. If Custer saw Benteen, he would have a choice no matter the disposition of G and L-Troops, as explained above. Since he didn't head for G and L, the first to go under, he probably wouldn't have unless he was aware all 5-6 troops were engaged and that his strategy had failed.

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michaeljohn

Now, let's explore another scenario. Forget the contingent in the south, they tucked tail and ran. Suppose Custer followed his orders and waited for General Terry. His men and horses would have been ok. The troops guarding the pack trains would have been able to keep up. If they can communicate with Terry through scouts, they can either conduct at least two prong attack, hitting the village at each end in full strength. or both also hit the village 2 or 3 times each along the western edge. Or, they could have surrounded the entire camp. The US Army would not be as vulnerable, and even if one attack met a last stand, the rest of the village would have stood on shaky ground.

I still think, that once attacked, the Indians would have met each conflict to it's resolution. They were determined to maintain the way of life they new. Who would have won? I guess it depends on how well the Army strategizes it, and is able to pull it off. Surprise value is important, and the more you spread out, the more likely you lose that asset. Either side could have met a decisive loss.

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BOJAY

Too bad the Army of the West gets all the bad pr. Washington and the Indian agency were more to blame. after misappropriating funds and supplies meant for the Indians, and bowing to miners and prospectors wanting gold and silver the agencies were told to move off their land. with the Yavapais and Tonto Apaches this was the winter of 1775 a 7day trek across the Mogollon rim from Fort Verde to fort Apache, and later to San Carlos (Globe, AZ) 2/3 of the clan died during the trek The same was done to the Sioux. The history of the Indian wars (1867-1893) is a disgrace. I am not proud when I portray an 23rd Army of foot (infantry) officer during this period in Arizona, NOR are some of my friends in the 10th Cavalry (buffalo) . Our government broke so many treaties during that time.

BOJAY

Another point of "Big Horn" General Crook,(5 cav,& 23 I) was at Rosebud, had only about 50 rounds per trooper, and was attempting to return to Goose Creek to re supply (he was caught by the same band having lost fifty men including 1 Shoshne scout they retreated on 17 June General Terry sent Custer and the 7th to explore the Rosebud on 22 June while he and the 23 infantry went north. ( see General Crook and the Western Frontier by C. M. Robinson pp 185-187)

michaeljohn

Well, let's revive this...Thanks to BOJAY for knowing the name Crook, which I had forgotten. Also, the name of Custer's brother-in-law was Calhoun. He could have commanded G-Troop, not L-Troop, but whichever one he did was the first to fall. Custer also lost 2 brothers, the older was named Tom. A young nephew died with Custer as well. There was a journalist, Tom or Mark Kellog that fell.

Custer had two wounds, either could have been fatal. He had gunshots to his breat and left temple. The latter seems to disprove he committed suicide, he was right handed. More likely the head wound was delivered after he fell. See the Indians went around making sure every waischu (White man) was dead.

Supposedly, Custer's body wasn't mutilated, but this could have been told out of respect to his wife Libby. At least, there is some substance to the fact one of his fingers was cut off, his ears were bored into so he would hear better in the next world, and that he had arrows shot into his groin. They took everything he wore, except a pair of socks. Also, the indians didn't know it was Yellow-Hair they were fighting until later. His brother Tom was brutally mutilated, only recognizable from a tattoo. His whole front was cut open, and there is specualtion that Gall ate his heart out, as he promised years before stemming from an incident the two men had.

Ok, more coming soon, please participate!

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BOJAY

Unfortunately, G. W. Custer Col USA bvt B Gen, has never been on the top of my list of military heroes. Currently I am doing reenactment- living history of 1873, 23rd army of foot Infantry, co I at Fort Verde, Arizona. The Captain USA bvt Colonel J.J. Coppinger is an Irish emergent, who was a Chevalier (Knight) of the Army of Rome ( Vatican) His rank of Captain was granted upon enlistment in the US Army just prior to our Civil War and upon retirement after the Spanish American War 1n 1904 he was a Major General quite a feat in those days.

michaeljohn

adding a bit.... Custer wasn't scalped. You probably picture his long golden mane as prize worthy, but he actually cut it short for the campaign and he was going bald. Not desireable. His adjutant, Cooke I believe, had massive muttonchops called Dromderries or something like that and had one scalped, which horrified the brave's mother when he showed it to her....

Custer had a Crow scout Curley, who he let go shortly before the battle. He claims to have watched part of the battle, but probably didn't. At a reunion later from the survivors, (7th and Indians) he was told he must have had wings to have gotten away if he stuck around, as they had the waischu's surrounded. Nothing made an Indian happier than killing a fellow Indian who had joined the other guys. Custer had another scout, Mitch Boyeur, who was half black, half Indian. His body was found near the little big horn river, so he may have been one of the first to die.

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BOJAY

With the hair cut and going bald , he was most likely not recognized, and bypassed as just another packer (mule driver) who was caught in the fight.

michaeljohn

Hindsight lends a clearer picture of it all, but it would seem the Indians had a chance to take out Benteen and Reno. Reno hill was defendable, to a point. Supplies were limited and the soldiers did have to get more water from the river constantly. Yeah, it would have cost a lot of Indian lives, but they could have done it. Then fight to the finish with General Terry. By fleeing, they only hastened their end. They may have held out for years. Some Indians went to Canada, including Sitting Bull. I believe most returned. A decisive Indian victory in 1876 and they could have gone anywhere, even dispersed into "nothngness".

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BOJAY

hold on a second, The lakotas were not as well armed as the apaches of the south who under Geronimo in the 1880s caused the department of Arizona to enter Mexico under Gen Crook and continue for almost five years and three surrenders only to "break away" again . by the way you will find Gen Crook command most western forces during the Indian Wars he was a Brigadier Gen for 16 years before becoming a major general and served for over thirty five years fighting on the western frontier after the Civil War

mighty

Custer was killed by arrows to his body.

But the Battle from the start would have been won by the army due to the fact GUNS vs. ARROWS..

So you can have all the what ifs in the world it still came down to the point the Natives where slaughtered and Custer shouldnt have been Praised for his doings.