WR - CCW, College, and the recent VT situation.

09-13-2006, 01:14 AM

schutzenkonig

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CCW, College, and the recent VT situation.

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Before we go into this, let me start out with the current law. In VA, anyone can legally carry a concealed weapon with their (VA legal) CCW permit on any public campus except VCU. The problem with CCW there comes only for students and faculty. You can be expelled or fired for carrying there due to school rules. Other states vary, NC where I go to school for example, its illegal by state law.

packing.org has the pertinant information on the current law on ccw on college campuses.

I'm going to post two editorials that came out right after the VT situation ended. Discuss.

Link 1

Quote:

Personal safety should be entrusted to more than just the police
August 23rd, 2006

On Monday, at about 9:20 AM my graduate level class was evacuated from the Squires Student Center. We were interrupted in class and not informed of anything other than the following words: “You need to get out of the building.”

Upon exiting my classroom, we were met at the doors leading outside by two armor-clad policemen with fully automatic weapons, plus their side arms. Once outside, there were several more officers with either fully automatic rifles, pump shotguns and even policemen running down the street, pistols drawn.

It was at this time that I realized that I had no viable means of protecting myself. Please realize that I am licensed to carry a concealed handgun in the Commonwealth of Virginia, and do so on a regular basis. However, because I am a Virginia Tech student, I am prohibited from carrying my gun at school because of Virginia Tech’s student policy, which makes possession of a handgun an expellable offense, but not a prosecutable crime.

I had entrusted my safety, and the safety of others to the police. In light of this, there are a few things I wish to point out. First, I never want to have my safety fully in the hands of anyone else, including the police. Second, I almost brought my gun with me to campus, but did not due to the obvious risk of losing my graduate career, which is ridiculous because had I been shot and killed, there would have been no graduate career for me anyway. Third, and most importantly, I am trained and able to carry a concealed handgun almost anywhere in Virginia and other states that have reciprocity with Virginia, but cannot carry where I spend more time than anywhere else because, somehow, I become a threat to others when I cross from the Town of Blacksburg on to Virginia Tech’s campus.

Of all of the emotions and thoughts that were running through my head that morning, the most overwhelming one was of helplessness. That feeling of helplessness has been difficult to reconcile because I knew I would have been safer with a proper means to defend myself. I would also like to point out that when I mentioned to a professor that I would feel safer with my gun, this is what she said to me, “I would feel safer if you had your gun”.

The policy that forbids students who are legally licensed to carry a concealed handgun in Virginia needs to be changed. I am qualified and capable of carrying a concealed handgun and urge you all to work with me to allow my most basic right of self-defense, and eliminate my entrusting my safety and the safety of my classmates to the government. This incident makes it clear that it is time that Virginia Tech and the Commonwealth of Virginia let me take responsibility for my safety.

Sincerely,

Bradford B. Wiles
Graduate Student at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University

Link 2

Quote:

Arming citizens could help security
August 23rd, 2006

The recent escape and pursuit of William Morva caused us to see things we never expected to on campus: Squires evacuated, police with assault rifles and snipers on rooftops. In the aftermath we must be sure to fairly and accurately assess the actions of all parties to ascertain what could have been done better or worse.

We can only applaud the various law enforcement agencies that pursued and eventually captured Morva, most especially Cpl. Eric Sutphin of the Montgomery County Sheriff’s office. He and hospital security guard Derrick McFarland paid the ultimate price trying to prevent a suspected dangerous criminal from harming others.

We must give due criticism to the University for its decisions that put students in greater danger than was necessary. By that I am not so much referring to the decision to allow morning classes to take place, but rather the decades-old policy that prohibits students, faculty and staff from legally carrying firearms on campus. This ban even goes so far as to include those who have valid Concealed Handgun Permits.

No doubt many people reading this are thinking, “Guns have no place in an institute of learning!” The most commonly used argument in favor of campus gun bans is that there are times when emotions run high — either because of an in-class discussion or a dispute between a student and professor over a grade — and someone with a gun could easily lose control and shoot somebody else.

There are several facts that debunk this argument. The first is that the campus gun ban is completely artificial, and relies on the honor system. Because we don’t have metal detectors scanning every car and person that enters the campus, it is impossible to truly prevent someone from bringing a firearm if they are so inclined.

Secondly, if your emotions are running high, you don’t need a gun to do serious harm to another human being. Common objects such as pencils, large hole-punchers and metal trash cans can be turned into weapons very quickly. Failing that, fists are also highly effective in a moment of rage. Remember that a gun is just a tool, and it takes a human being’s free will to use it.

Thirdly, incidences where violence has occurred because of an in-class discussion or grade dispute are extremely rare, so this gun ban really is a solution in search of a non-existent problem.

Finally, a person who has a CHP has gone through both firearm training and an extensive background check to obtain that permit. CHP holders are the good guys (and gals), and are statistically less given to violent crime than the rest of the population. And if we’re concerned about guns is residence halls, realize that in just about every state that issues CHPs, including Virginia, you have to be at least 21 to obtain a permit. Since most 21-year olds live off-campus, I’d say the chance of a CHP holder keeping a handgun in a residence hall is slim. And even if one did, remember that this person is better trained than most, meaning that he or she will have the sense to keep the firearm secured at all times. Now consider the situation of this past Monday. A violent criminal who clearly has no respect for other people’s lives is running loose on campus, his precise whereabouts unknown. And while the police did an excellent job of patrolling campus, they simply cannot be everywhere at once. Is it not obvious that all students, faculty and staff would have been safer if CHP holders were not banned from carrying their weapons on campus?

What the Board of Visitors has effectively done by banning CHP-holding students, faculty and staff from carrying their weapons is creating a “Safe Zone” for criminals who do not care about the rules anyway. Disarming law-abiding citizens has never made the general populace more secure. In fact, the opposite tends to be true. States that have less restrictive gun control laws have seen a greater decrease in violent crime since 1995 than states that have more restrictive gun control. Closer to home, a few years ago, an armed man was terrorizing the campus of the Appalachian School of Law in Grundy, VA. It was not the police who stopped him, but two CHP-holding students who ran to their cars, got their weapons, and were able to subdue the gunman.

Am I encouraging vigilante behavior? No. That is why we have police, to eliminate the need for that. However, we cannot deny that armed citizens are, and have been a source of security for the public at large for the entire history of this country. For the university to continue to enforce its no-gun policy is to continue to put students in greater danger from the Morvas of the world.

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09-13-2006, 10:55 PM	#6
schutzenkonig This is my rifle... Champion! Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: in the US Posts: 1,642/1.02 Threads: 11 Friends Network	Re: CCW, College, and the recent VT situation. The reasonable purpose is exemplified by such situations as the VT incident or last year's crime spree down here and NCSU (armed carjackings, lots of thefts, muggings). It is to allow you the ability to protect yourself against viable threats which ARE present on campus. No one can deny that there was an armed killer on the loose at VT, no one can deny that there was a gang of people down here at NCSU that were commiting violent crimes against students. These people doing these terrible acts have never cared about those rules against having weapons, it really only serves to protect the criminals from their prey. As for your comment about me personally knowing someone shot by a cop on campus, I'm really not sure where that came from as I didn't allude that they were a problem on campus. There have been problems with cops shooting innocents and getting away with it, but that's a topic for another thread. As for your comments about it being safer with only cops having guns, how then, are we supposed to protect ourselves from an attack? Call the police and hope they get there in the first 10 seconds of the attack when the victor is decided? No, absolutely unrealistic. As for permit holders being a problem, this is been shown to not be the case. These thoughts that they go off and kill people are nothing but fantasy. They have been noted as being the most law abiding population group. kpeeze, the problem comes that currently if we take our safety as our responsibility (which it is, and has been held up in court), and carry the means to protect our wellbeing, we risk expulsion, if not a criminal conviction against us. We are currently at the mercy of criminals on campus.

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09-13-2006, 11:05 PM

kpeeze

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Re: CCW, College, and the recent VT situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by schutzenkonig

The reasonable purpose is exemplified by such situations as the VT incident or last year's crime spree down here and NCSU (armed carjackings, lots of thefts, muggings). It is to allow you the ability to protect yourself against viable threats which ARE present on campus. No one can deny that there was an armed killer on the loose at VT, no one can deny that there was a gang of people down here at NCSU that were commiting violent crimes against students. These people doing these terrible acts have never cared about those rules against having weapons, it really only serves to protect the criminals from their prey. As for your comment about me personally knowing someone shot by a cop on campus, I'm really not sure where that came from as I didn't allude that they were a problem on campus. There have been problems with cops shooting innocents and getting away with it, but that's a topic for another thread.

As for your comments about it being safer with only cops having guns, how then, are we supposed to protect ourselves from an attack? Call the police and hope they get there in the first 10 seconds of the attack when the victor is decided? No, absolutely unrealistic. As for permit holders being a problem, this is been shown to not be the case. These thoughts that they go off and kill people are nothing but fantasy. They have been noted as being the most law abiding population group.

kpeeze, the problem comes that currently if we take our safety as our responsibility (which it is, and has been held up in court), and carry the means to protect our wellbeing, we risk expulsion, if not a criminal conviction against us. We are currently at the mercy of criminals on campus.

You make it sound like we are all under attack. Don't buy the protecting criminals from prey argument. In places like California, where concealed weapons are not legal, the law is used to arrest people who are carrying weapons when there isn't any other probable cause, because presumably people illegally carrying concealed weapons have a criminal intent.

My point is that you make it sound like you are less safe carrying a gun, whereas I would say that you are safer if noone is allowed to carry a gun. Statistics show that generally, one is more likely to be shot by their own gun in an accident, than by another's gun. It's not like you have criminals running rampant on campus, sure there is the occassional campus crime, but college campuses are one of the safest places per/capita of any place in the country. Allowing students to arm themselves, I don't think is going to make it any safer, but quite the opposite, much more dangerous.

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09-13-2006, 11:41 PM	#8
schutzenkonig This is my rifle... Champion! Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: in the US Posts: 1,642/1.02 Threads: 11 Friends Network	Re: CCW, College, and the recent VT situation. Actually California does have CCW permits, only IL and WI do not allow it at all. Kinda throws your whole argument off there... Statistics show, I can say statistics show anything I want, a common question that a statistician will ask his boss is what do you want it to say, because statistics can be made to support anything. Considering that things such as choking on a hunting trip, falling out of a tree, etc are "hunting accidents" which are commonly used as the accidental part of the statistics, and there are an estimated 0.1 million to 2.5 million defensive gun uses every year depending on your criteria, I have a hard time believing any assertion that it makes you less safe to have a gun which is very easy to control and be safe with.

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09-14-2006, 12:14 AM

kpeeze

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Re: CCW, College, and the recent VT situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by schutzenkonig

Actually California does have CCW permits, only IL and WI do not allow it at all. Kinda throws your whole argument off there...

Statistics show, I can say statistics show anything I want, a common question that a statistician will ask his boss is what do you want it to say, because statistics can be made to support anything. Considering that things such as choking on a hunting trip, falling out of a tree, etc are "hunting accidents" which are commonly used as the accidental part of the statistics, and there are an estimated 0.1 million to 2.5 million defensive gun uses every year depending on your criteria, I have a hard time believing any assertion that it makes you less safe to have a gun which is very easy to control and be safe with.

1. California does not allow concealed weapons for most individuals. Peace officers, judges, and a few other types of people are excepted, but otherwise, concealed weapons are not legal. So by and large for the general public they are not legal - my point still stands.

2. To a degree, I see what you are saying about statistics, but there are certain statistics that are not really as maliable. One is the one I refer to. How can you fudge the criteria for being shot by your gun or by a gun owned by someone else? Not really a fudgeable number. You either are or are not shot by your own gun. You either are or are not shot by another's gun. If you would rather, facts show that one is more likely to be shot by their own gun than that of another.

Considering that:
1) Banning concealed weapons can allow for police to arrest people solely for carrying a concealed weapon (who presumably have criminal intent, since concealed weapons are banned in this situation) and thus do not necessarily only make the innocent prey to criminals;
2) College campuses are not as dangerous as you make them out to be, thus negating the need to protect yourself; and
3) Facts show that accidents are more prevalent than attacks (not really a fudgable number whether you are shot by your gun or someone elses) and thus, necessarily the danger of more members of the public owning a gun would increase the number of gun related deaths -

I think it is very reasonable for a college to ban concealed weapons, and unreasonable for people to complain.

But since I can tell that you are ideologically blind, and will never agree that concealed weapons in certain places are dangerous, and should rightfully be banned - even in the face of indisputeable facts, I don't see the need to continue to debate you on this.

I can find you the most rock solid data, and you would refute this if it didn't support your argument, so any further discussion here is a waste of time.

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09-14-2006, 12:47 AM	#10
schutzenkonig This is my rifle... Champion! Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: in the US Posts: 1,642/1.02 Threads: 11 Friends Network	Re: CCW, College, and the recent VT situation. 1. you are incorrect on CA. It may not be a great CCW state, and is not shall issue, but some localities give it to anyone that is qualified, and the qualifications aren't too much different than anywhere else, the thing is some localities don't give them at all. Please, look up the laws and you'll see what I'm talking about. 2. I posted an example. Hunting accidents (like falling out of a tree), suicides, and things such as having the slide close on your finger breaking it, are routinely included in those statistics. It's pattently obvious why this means the "study" is not representative of reality. How is arresting people that have a concealed weapon and arresting people that are carrying without a permit any different from your side? it satisfies your criteria of assumption of evil intent, yet you desire to take away the right of self defense from someone inspite of the lack of requirement for a police officer to give aid at all. College campuses may not be bad, but that doesn't negate the fact that sometimes criminals do come here and use the fact that most are unarmed here to be able to do what they want. It's about being prepared for the worst, you wouldn't go on a road trip without a spare tire, would you? See above on why such studies are not accurate to reality.

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09-14-2006, 09:49 AM

#11

kpeeze

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Re: CCW, College, and the recent VT situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by schutzenkonig

1. you are incorrect on CA. It may not be a great CCW state, and is not shall issue, but some localities give it to anyone that is qualified, and the qualifications aren't too much different than anywhere else, the thing is some localities don't give them at all. Please, look up the laws and you'll see what I'm talking about.

2. I posted an example. Hunting accidents (like falling out of a tree), suicides, and things such as having the slide close on your finger breaking it, are routinely included in those statistics. It's pattently obvious why this means the "study" is not representative of reality.

How is arresting people that have a concealed weapon and arresting people that are carrying without a permit any different from your side? it satisfies your criteria of assumption of evil intent, yet you desire to take away the right of self defense from someone inspite of the lack of requirement for a police officer to give aid at all.

College campuses may not be bad, but that doesn't negate the fact that sometimes criminals do come here and use the fact that most are unarmed here to be able to do what they want. It's about being prepared for the worst, you wouldn't go on a road trip without a spare tire, would you?

See above on why such studies are not accurate to reality.

Like I said, if I gave you concrete evidence that did not support your contention, you would attack the evidence. For example, if I said earth is a planet, and that did not support your contention, you might say that the definition of a planet is flawed - look at the change in status in Pluto, thus earth cannot be said to be a planet. The point being that it doesn't matter in what context accidents occur, or whether they were accidents. My point is that people get shot with their own gun more often than that of another. Since this is clearly an unintended consequence (people don't get guns to get shot by them), then necessarily the chances of the unintended consequences are greater than intended, and thus create more of a danger than any they may prevent.

You need to check on your California laws, because barring extremely limited exceptions which I conceded above, the general public generally does not have the ability to carry concealed weapons.

I'm sorry if you feel unprotected, but my perspective is that is something you are just going to need to get over. As I pointed out above, gun possession is more dangerous than not (generally speaking, while there are individual exceptions, you might be one, generally they are less safe - sorry that a few fuck it up for you) and a decision has been made on many college campuses that the general promotion of a safe environment for the whole student community outweighs any individual preference to arm him or herself. The spare tire example is a poor one, because there is a reasonable chance that in driving you may have a flat tire (happens to most of us every once in a while), whereas the risk of being endangered such that a gun would save you is so remote that it is not a risk worthy of preparing for - at least not when a value-laden decision regarding the general welfare of a student body has been taken into account.

Sure I could get barbed by a stingray next time I swim in the ocean, but that doesn't mean I should wear an armed suit next time I go swimming in the ocean.

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09-14-2006, 01:59 PM

#12

schutzenkonig

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Re: CCW, College, and the recent VT situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by schutzenkonig

one. you are incorrect on CA. It may not be a great CCW state, and is not shall issue, but some localities give it to anyone that is qualified, and the qualifications aren't too much different than anywhere else, the thing is some localities don't give them at all. Please, look up the laws and you'll see what I'm talking about.

2. I posted an example. Hunting accidents (like falling out of a tree), suicides, and things such as having the slide close on your finger breaking it, are routinely included in those statistics. It's pattently obvious why this means the "study" is not representative of reality.

How is arresting people that have a concealed weapon and arresting people that are carrying without a permit any different from your side? it satisfies your criteria of assumption of evil intent, yet you desire to take away the right of self defense from someone inspite of the lack of requirement for a police officer to give aid at all.

College campuses may not be bad, but that doesn't negate the fact that sometimes criminals do come here and use the fact that most are unarmed here to be able to do what they want. It's about being prepared for the worst, you wouldn't go on a road trip without a spare tire, would you?

See above on why such studies are not accurate to reality.

That was my previous post.

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09-14-2006, 02:02 PM	#13
Chilly-Willy whore Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Michigan Posts: 30/0.04 Threads: 3 Friends Network	Re: CCW, College, and the recent VT situation. Personally, I think we should have more strict laws on obtaining a driving license and actually keeping it before we start allowing the common person to carry a concealed weapon. People that don't know how to drive kill many more people than guns do, yet a driver's license is not all that hard to obtain. You may be thinking "what's my point". Well, my point is simply that a license to carry a concealed weapon is really not all that hard to obtain either, with a little practice and some spare time (just like the time and effort it takes to learn to drive). So I fear, that in time, allowing anyone to carry a weapon with a license could result in just as many if not more, because of people's attitudes and tempers, deaths than cars account for now in the future. I'm not saying that a right to defend ourselves is such a bad thing. All I'm saying is that if you or anyone else feels afraid now from being harmed by people that don't obey the law, than how would we all feel once everyone is "packing". Personally, I'd much rather worry about driving down the street with crazy people, than walking down it.

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