karearea

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Over the millenia, indeed, even further back maybe. Religion has been used as a reason for one sect warring another. For instance the Romans Vs Everyone... The biblical wars. But my question is.

In todays world, is religion being used as a reason for war, or as an excuse?

There is little difference in my oppinion. As a reason for war, the logic is flawed as many of us christian/muslim...etc pray to the same god albeit with different names, allah, jehova, god,... and I'm sure there are more names for the one true god as he calls himself in the old testament.
As an excuse, the logic is equally flawed, trying to blame a war on religion when the real issue is property or politics is like heaping more straw onto the camels back. Will religion become banned for the atrocities that are blamed on it?

thecowboy

no, religion will never be banned. Even if it was it would perservere. I don't think it's an excuse or a reason. I think religion is a moral guiding pole. True, christians and muslims are bowing to the same God but it is the different interpretations that make up the difference between the religions. For instance: their interpretation is: "strap bomb on back and take out jews, then receive virgins" and ours is: "forgive those who repent."


Last part was a joke, but you see my point.

CD

Religion exists because people need to have comfort for the unknown of death. It helps many sleep at night basically. Now, because of that it will never go away. It will continue to exist in one form or another.
Now I believe in God, but I do not believe that Christians have it right. Just like we look back on the ancient Greeks and say that they were wrong to believe in their mythology, I choose to believe that there is a good chance that the Christians are still wrong... just a little bit more refined though.
Another problem is that with strong beliefs come strong action. It's hard for many Christians to accept that others could feel differently, so there is already a desire to change others. Add the governments desire to alter middle eastern countries current path and you will have a problem. I don't see an end in sight, but hopefully I'm wrong on that.

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kulotsalot

Problem is, hardcore Muslims don't believe that they are praying to the Judeo-Christian God, and Hardcore Christians don't believe (and wouldn't be comfortable with the idea!) that Allah may be listening to, and answering their prayers.

Just by this statement alone:



you enforce your beliefs upon everyone else on the planet. Just because YOU believe that there is one true god, AND that one true god is Allah, Jehovah, Yahweh, etc combined into one super package, does not make it true. If I believed otherwise, I couldn't make YOUR belief false, either. Which brings me to the thing that is so irritating about (strong) religious beliefs - you can't keep them to yourself. As CD said, there is almost always a strong desire to "convert" everyone else.

Dr. Weezil

FYI: atheists have morals; it's just that theirs weren't externally imposed.

Personally, I strongly accept the reality of relativism, particularly when it comes to "morals." Case in point, murder is wrong in all civil societies however, killing during war is acceptable. Both involve one human willfully taking the life of another. The ONLY difference is circumstance. To me, killing is WRONG period, in the streets or in war. End of story.

Just as some more food for thought, despite still being stigmatized in today's society, both homosexuality and prostitution were commonplace in both ancient Rome and Greece. Funny what 2,000 years will do to supposedly "universal morals."

Now, on the matter of religion, there are numerous "faiths" in the world and numerous high deities at the center of each practice. Each one believes that they are in possession of "the truth." However, on the basic question of who's truth is right and which "god" is the real one, NONE can agree; they'll all say that there's is right and everyone else is wrong.

Belief in something does not in and of itself make one correct. This addresses the conversion note above.

If "god" is to be the "universal force" then it would stand to reason that that force would be able to manifest itself to all human minds and its reality would be readily apparent.

Omnipotence trumps "free will."

Therefore, since we can't agree on who's got the right "god" nor even how many "gods" there are, it's demonstrable that no "universal force" is manifesting itself to all of humanity and therefor DOES NOT EXIST.

Bottom line, the fact that we have many religions and can't settle our differences between them means there are no "god" or "gods."

Finally, religion is always the excuse, because behind every "crusade" are a bunch of greedy fuckers looking to loot, pilage, plunder, and annex as much as possible; the religious angle is just set dressing.

skept

I for one cannot understand how Jews / Christians and Muslims don't understand that we are all praying to the same Being (call Him God for arguements sakes). The Jews have the Torah or the Old Testament which they believe were given to them by Yewah(sp?). Chrisitans believe in the Old Testament but have also added on the New Testament (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, Revelations etc.). But as a Christian we still believe in the Old Testament. Muslims believe in Jesus (by default meaning they believe in the OT /NT) but believe that Muhammed was their greatest prophet and they call their God Allah.

So in essence we all believe in exactly the same God since each of our religions inherit scriptures for each other and the common ground is that we believe that there is one supreme being that we call God. So its wrong for some of one faith to descriminate against other faiths.

To war in the name of God is wrong - all three religions teach the basic principles of love one another, justice and fairness. So Religion can NEVER be used as an excuse to kill someone or to wage warfare on some people. In light of me saying this we only have to delve back into history to see the Crusades against the Muslims. This can only be explained by intolerance and ignorance of the religious leaders at the time.

Why is religion such a big issue? For some people it gives them an explanation for things which science cannot yet explain. For others its a last cry for help. You cannot define what religion gives to anyone as everyones personal experience with religion is different.

In light of all this, religion is something that can never be banned. Unless your in a cult, its not a buisness, there is no profit to be gained from religion. In the same light unless you are fanatical there is no preaching of hate or war in any of the religions. The problem is not religion, but a minority of narrowminded fanatical fundamentalists.

thecowboy

I disagree. I think the church is a business, whether or not it says it is non-profit. They still pay people and get paid (donations) just like any other business. This is why I refuse to belong to a church. I just don't feel like you should have to "pay" for your salvation.

xevious

Religion has been used to start wars for thousands of years (the Crusades for instance). It isn't religion thats to blame, it's the humans that use it to kill. Blaming religion for wars is like blaming a video game for making you kill people. Religion is something that many use for comfort, and because most humans cannot accept that we just......end. So we try to explain what put us here, what our purpose is, what happens after death. It's just that there is always willing to take something benign and twist it into something atrocious. So no, in my opinion, religion shouldn't be blamed for anything unless the religion specifically states "You must kill him to be accepted into this afterlife". Christianity, Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish, I have yet to see anything in any of those religions respective books that says "Thou shalt kill those you hate". As I said before, it's just the twisting of words by twisted people that makes murderers, not the religion itself.

tuathal

True, spot on. Take another example, Northern Ireland. Most people outside of britain and ireland think this is a religious war............couldnt be further from the truth. Its all about territory, who claims the 6 counties........its pure coincidence that the opposing factions are of different religious backrounds.

CD

WRONG. Catholocism is the biggest business in the world. I think Baptists have the #2 spot. Now there are some churches that are extremely legit, however, there are quite a few that are about as legit as a $17 bill.

Yes, that is the fault of the people in charge and not the institution itself, but think about it like this. The preachers want to spread the word of God and Jesus cause the bible tells them to. Spreading the word is only accomplished from the "donations" of others. So they want to collect more money in church service. So far this is the religion telling them and not corruption.
Now throw into the mix the fact the Christian faith says that if you don't believe the way we do, you suffer eternal damnation. So basically you have the perfect business model. People don't want to suffer in the afterlife, and they don't want friends to either. So then they talk to everyone they can to build the "business". The business grows from increased number of donations, and the money goes to bigger churches (more churchgoers) and fatter wallets. Say what you want, but Microsoft, oil companies, and banks would KILL to have that business model!

/CD

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skept

I understand the point you are making but TBH I mean something completely different.

There are religions out there that demand that you tithe a portion of your income to the Church. In the Catholic faith your donations are only if you are willing to give them - you are not forced to donate if you do not want to.

There is a verse in the New Testament about this very issue. The donation boxes were devised so that you could see the amount of money that you put into it. The rich Jews were obviously putting in large amounts of money whilst a lowly housewife only put in 2c. Jesus said something to the effect that her donation was just as good as the large amount.

In the Catholic faith when the collection basket comes along you are not asked to put anything into it - its just if you want you can put money in. People are not guilted into putting money into it - if you donate or you don't there is no 'heaven or hell' attitude associated with it. So in essence the Church is run on people donating money rather then them aggressively marketing / campaigning / taking money from the people.

The Church is not a pay per view service. Those that donate give because they can, those that do not donate are just as accepted in the Church as those that don't.

Comparing a true buisness model and that of the Church - its like saying Microsoft / Oil companies will give you all their products for free - but if you want you can give them money.

I hope that cleared up what I meant

thecowboy

My parents quit going to the catholic church because the only time the priest ever came over and gave them the time of day is when they were trying to raise money to build a new church.

shiiboi

1. All wars are based on economics - the desire to acquire/control access to scarce resources.

2. Us/them distinctions arise when there controversy over control/access to scarce resources.

3. Church/state separation is a very new (and not universally-accepted) idea. Religious worldview is one way to determine who is 'us' and who is 'them.' In a pluralistic society (such as the US) religion plays less of a role in defining national interest, so the truth (greed) becomes more obvious.

tuathal