From ESPN June 11: Ranking the NBA Franchises from best to worst in history

[michaeljohn]

Linky: Intro to all-time NBA franchise rankings - ESPN

#1 Lakers
#2 Celtics
#3 Spurs
#4 Bulls

I have had my own war going on with rexhamer over this. Hollinger cites the same reasons I do why Boston has fallen to number 2:

Originally Posted by JohnHollinger

But the Celtics trail the Lakers overall in this exercise because of the gulfs of subpar play surrounding their championship teams. Boston went eight years without a winning season in the '90s and was terrible before Russell arrived; overall, the Celtics have had seasons with 15, 19, 20, 22, 22, 24, 25 and 29 wins. Contrast that with the Lakers, who have won fewer than 30 games only twice -- both seasons coming half a century ago -- and it's no surprise that L.A. has won more games, more playoff games and more playoff series than Boston, and has nearly as many All-Star appearances.

I have also placed the Spurs #3 ahead of the Bulls. Consistency is a big part of success! As I said before, 20 years ago there was no debate, now as I have said, there is! Well, argue away!

[michaeljohn]

I don't know if this is a truly random sample of votes, but fans may particpate and select their top 30.

Clicky to vote for yours: List Ranker - Rank 'Em: NBA Franchises - ESPN

Results:

Rank - Team - #1 votes - Total points
1 Lakers (7,431) 458,759
2 Celtics (5,742) 454,701
3 Bulls (1,954) 433,479
4 Spurs (145) 382,995
5 Pistons (227) 349,079
6 Rockets (67) 275,283
7 Knicks (116) 272,542
8 76ers (67) 271,646
9 Jazz (68) 261,977
10 Suns (40) 239,769
11 Trail Blazers (72) 217,742
12 Heat (44) 209,007
13 Pacers (38) 201,227
14 Cavaliers (188) 193,077
15 Magic (104) 188,597
16 Mavericks (38) 188,310
17 Nuggets (55) 174,647
18 Hawks (18) 154,167
19 Bucks (37) 146,952
20 Nets (15) 145,776
21 Hornets (10) 133,612
22 Kings (27) 127,141
23 Warriors (25) 112,594
24 Wizards (21) 97,375
25 Wolves (31) 86,999
26 Raptors (26) 84,985
27 Clippers (18) 72,185
28 Grizzlies (13) 67,675
29 Thunder (24) 65,899
30 Bobcats (37) 62,116

YOUR RANKINGS
1.Lakers
2.Celtics
3.Spurs
4.Bulls
5.76ers
6.Pistons
7.Rockets
8.Knicks
9.Jazz
10.Suns
11.Hawks
12.Trail Blazers
13.Warriors
14.Nuggets
15.Cavaliers
16.Heat
17.Mavericks
18.Magic
19.Nets
20.Pacers
21.Thunder
22.Wizards
23.Bucks
24.Hornets
25.Kings
26.Wolves
27.Raptors
28.Bobcats
29.Clippers
30.Grizzlies

[michaeljohn]

I found this list online. Lakers still holding the lead among fans as the greatest franchise ever. Again, I can't vouch for the statistical accuracy of this poll, but the answers are compelling!

1 Lakers (9,358) 592,160
2 Celtics (7,937) 588,259
3 Bulls (2,243) 557,307
4 Spurs (176) 493,101
5 Pistons (257) 450,806
6 Knicks (138) 354,415
7 Rockets (77) 350,815
8 76ers (89) 347,799
9 Jazz (85) 334,738
10 Suns (56) 307,605
11 Trail Blazers (83) 275,707
12 Heat (56) 271,550
13 Pacers (48) 259,499
14 Cavaliers (241) 252,217
15 Mavericks (46) 244,822
16 Magic (116) 244,050
17 Nuggets (71) 229,149
18 Hawks (24) 200,560
19 Nets (23) 190,830
20 Bucks (43) 188,329
21 Hornets (15) 175,307
22 Kings (34) 165,032
23 Warriors (32) 146,757
24 Wizards (28) 126,545
25 Wolves (40) 113,223
26 Raptors (30) 111,790
27 Clippers (27) 95,624
28 Grizzlies (17) 88,454
29 Thunder (33) 83,240
30 Bobcats (48) 81,084

[michaeljohn]

Here's another update. It proves nothing except it's a debate:

1 Lakers (10,662) 677,791
2 Celtics (9,290) 674,506
3 Bulls (2,428) 637,802
4 Spurs (188) 563,273
5 Pistons (279) 515,580
6 Knicks (147) 406,630
7 Rockets (91) 400,053
8 76ers (105) 396,373
9 Jazz (91) 381,551
10 Suns (68) 350,655
11 Trail Blazers (87) 312,686
12 Heat (70) 312,201
13 Pacers (53) 296,000
14 Cavaliers (284) 291,577
15 Mavericks (50) 282,161
16 Magic (121) 280,535
17 Nuggets (84) 264,520
18 Hawks (26) 230,902
19 Nets (26) 219,548
20 Bucks (46) 215,035
21 Hornets (19) 202,821
22 Kings (37) 189,118
23 Warriors (38) 167,877
24 Wizards (36) 145,194
25 Wolves (50) 130,304
26 Raptors (36) 129,176
27 Clippers (32) 111,637
28 Grizzlies (19) 103,073
29 Thunder (38) 94,139
30 Bobcats (56) 94,026

[michaeljohn]

Since rexhamer is going to respond to the Hollinger article and the ESPN polls, I thought I would see what the latest scores are, best as I can tell. Lakers still ahead, but it doesn't matter. I have proved it is a debate.

1 Lakers (11,499) 733,784
2 Celtics (10,175) 731,154
3 Bulls (2,548) 690,498
4 Spurs (202) 609,487
5 Pistons (294) 559,250
6 Knicks (156) 441,219
7 Rockets (96) 432,672
8 76ers (117) 429,262
9 Jazz (97) 413,236
10 Suns (74) 379,499
11 Heat (75) 338,586
12 Trail Blazers (93) 338,178
13 Pacers (55) 320,394
14 Cavaliers (310) 316,567
15 Mavericks (54) 306,672
16 Magic (130) 304,296
17 Nuggets (89) 287,480
18 Hawks (39) 250,863
19 Nets (30) 239,347
20 Bucks (52) 232,178
21 Hornets (21) 220,898
22 Kings (42) 205,042
23 Warriors (40) 182,371
24 Wizards (39) 157,612
25 Wolves (53) 141,590
26 Raptors (38) 140,727
27 Clippers (37) 121,301
28 Grizzlies (20) 112,134
29 Bobcats (61) 101,805
30 Thunder (48) 101,705

[rexhamer]

As for Red vs. Phil:

Originally Posted by michaeljohn

If most championships means best, how come New England folks are picking Red Auerbach over Phil Jackson as best coach in NBA history?

Boston fans remember Red also had a hand in seven other titles as an executive, this factors in their voting. That makes a total of 16 for Red.

Red had to build up the greatest dynasty in the history of professional sports essentially from scratch, it took a while to do that. As many others have noted recently, Jackson had the benefit of jumping into two jobs that had budding stars ready to emerge and deliver a championship.

And finally, it is a clear indication of the traditional inferiority complex of Lakers fan when they try to thump their chests over Phil Jackson, when he won more of his titles with the Bulls than the Lakers!

[rexhamer]

As noted in your comments and your signature, you’re going to hitch your star to Hollinger’s rankings and the subsequent poll.

Originally Posted by michaeljohn

I have had my own war going on with rexhamer over this. Hollinger cites the same reasons I do why Boston has fallen to number 2:

Once again, your comments will come back to haunt you. We’ll begin with Hollinger’s rankings. You don’t need to take my opinion of this. Let’s look at what others have to say. What is most enlightening is to read through the replies from ESPN Sports Nation’s members regarding Hollinger’s methodology. At last count there are over 300 replies, and it is not an exaggeration to say that the comments are running more than 20-1 critical of Hollinger’s methodology. You can probably count on your ten fingers how many replies out of the 300 have complimented Hollinger for his methodology.

A number of readers have noted the following:

The Pistons ending up at #13, behind the Bucks and teams that have never won a title?
30 points for a championship, the same as a team’s 30-win season (tell me the last time a team with a 30-win season felt like they had just won a championship!)
Points for All-Stars? (I always thought it was about what happened on the court, what’s next – franchise $ value!)
Intangibles? An extra 150 points?

Hollinger’s methodology and rankings are considered by ESPN Sports Nation’s members to be a complete joke! I guess that says a lot about your “same reasons”.

[rexhamer]

As for the poll, here are a few points:

1. It is obvious that the poll results are directly influenced by Hollinger’s flawed rankings. Studies of US elections and polling indicate vast numbers of people are influenced by the last poll they see, and vote with the apparent leader. Same thing here. People were influenced by the rankings, which we now know are extremely suspect.

2. Fans can vote for any team, particularly their own. The poll is essentially a popularity contest. It is quite possible that, in the wake of the Lakers recent championship, their fans are more active and eager to express their sentiments at this time.

3. But since this is a poll where anyone can vote for any team, there are thousands of votes for teams other than the Lakers or Celtics. Can fans of any of the other 30 teams in the league seriously believe their team qualifies for the No. 1 ranking? There is no way to determine how these “neutral” fans would vote if they had to make a choice between only two teams (more on that in a minute).

[rexhamer]

4. And what about the other poll?

Originally Posted by michaeljohn

When the score was Lakers 14 titles to Celtics 17 titles, and the article linked in my signature was written a poll generated by ESPN generated Lakers 46% Celtics 54%.

And

Originally Posted by michaeljohn

The other polls above have disappeared and you can't find them!

Actually, the other poll has not disappeared. I cannot determine how to access this poll for voting purposes, but it remains active – the total votes continue to increase on the State-by-State results page. Somebody is voting from somewhere. So, let’s have a look at these two polls.

The Hollinger poll as of yesterday had 26,583 total votes, so we will call it the Small Poll. The State-by-State poll had 113,372 votes, so we will call it the Large Poll.

Your initial post on this matter has the Small Poll with

Lakers 7,431 #1 votes (56%)
Celtics 5,742 #1 votes (44%)

* The percentages are calculated based on the sum of just these two vote totals.

Yet, now we find the following:

Lakers 11,498 #1 votes (53%)
Celtics 10,175 #1 votes (47%)

That is a swing of 3% in just a few weeks. Obviously, as fans have taken a closer look at Hollinger’s rankings, the response is now trending in the Celtics direction!

[rexhamer]

But what is even more revealing is the Large Poll where fans can only choose Lakers or Celtics. In the last week or so it has gone from about 110,000 votes with a 54-46 Celtics lead to a recent total of 113,372 with a 56-44 Celtics lead, an increase in the Celtics lead of 2%. As with the trend of the Small Poll, the Celtics lead is growing in the wake of the Lakers 15th championship. You would have thought the “new numbers” would have had the opposite effect. I guess you didn’t predict that!

Let’s take a look at the actual numbers extrapolated from these figures;

Celtics 63,488 votes (56%)
Lakers 49,884 votes (44%)

I’ll take the results of the Large Poll at more than 5 times greater than the Small Poll as an indication of where people stand in this debate.

So, if you choose to link your signature to a flawed ranking and significantly smaller poll, that’s your business.

Oh, by the way – the Small Poll indicates the Bulls ahead of the Spurs:

No. 1 votes
Bulls 2,548 (93%)
Spurs 202 ( 7%)

But since #1 votes aren’t realistic, let’s take a look at the total points for each

Bulls 690,498 (53%)
Spurs 609,487 (47%)

What a dilemma - you either have to admit your Bulls-Spurs position is incorrect, or you have to dismiss the results of the Small Poll as inaccurate. This poll is actually more in line with your 2nd Olympics formula that showed the Bulls ahead! What to do????

Originally Posted by michaeljohn

rexhamer, you not only have to refute me, you have to refute ESPN!

Mission accomplished on both counts.

[michaeljohn]

Hahahaha, more flawed logic on rexhamers post, what else is new? I won't bother with it since he quit the debates here, and thus admitted defeat. However, whether he refuted them or not isn't the issue, it's the fact that it is a debate who's best where it wasn't 20 years ago. That was one of two points I wanted to make. The other was whether these numbers are reliable or not, the Lakers are gaining ground since they got title #15. Besides, ESPN is not me, I can't answer for them.


Since rexhamer got owned by statisitics in his other thread, I thought I would share this for the record: I am qualified to teach probablity and statistics at a community college. It isn't something I wish to do, but it is a fact. This is based on my degrees, and my passing of an examination on Geometry and Probablility and Statistics that satisfies the Federal Act of No Child Left Behind.

Here's a link to a sample test: CSET Test Guides--Mathematics Opener

Scores are curved, 100 is the lowest, 300 is the highest, 200 is the mean. Passing score is 220. If 220 is one standard deviation above the mean, (SD is unknown), for example, only about 1 in 6 pass this test. I am not even a math major and passed it on my first try! They don't reveal passing scores, but that doesn't matter.

Meanwhile, Lakers > Celtics and michaeljohn 1 rexhamer 0.

[rexhamer]

I have not "quit" the debate, I am walking off the court with my arms raised in triumph. The debate is over, I have been declared the victor by any intelligent and logical assessment. There will be no more posts from me on the matter in any of the current threads. If you choose to continue, you will be talking only to yourself.

As for the polls, etc.

Large Poll > Small Poll
Celtics > Lakers
Bulls > Spurs
rexhamer > michaeljohn

Adios!

[michaeljohn]

Originally Posted by rexhamer

I have not "quit" the debate, I am walking off the court with my arms raised in triumph. The debate is over, I have been declared the victor by any intelligent and logical assessment. There will be no more posts from me on the matter in any of the current threads. If you choose to continue, you will be talking only to yourself.

As for the polls, etc.

Large Poll > Small Poll
Celtics > Lakers
Bulls > Spurs
rexhamer > michaeljohn

Adios!

You quit, you lost, everyone knows that.

Let's recap:
Blog 1( MJ) Lakers > Celtics
Blog 2 (Rex) Disagreed with an easily refutable argument, filled with flawed logic
Blog 3 (MJ) Refuted Blog 2 (Rex)
Blog 4 (Rex) Failed to address Blog 3 (MJ)'s refutations, relied on attacking theory and speculation only.
Bog 5 (MJ) Took out theory and specualtion and annihilated Blog 4 (Rex) and Blog 2 (Rex) all over again.

You then created your other thread filled with flawed logic which I tore to shreds. You totally left out everything I refuted in blog 5 (MJ). You have no answer. You then ignored it further and threw the same tangent back at me which I also destroyed.

Now, don't go bringing up I keep arguing to become the last man standing. You have ignored the crux of this debate since April. you left me standing then. How many times did I ask you to answer blog 5 (MJ)? You are arguing everything you can except the issues. Those arguments got you more owned. You lost.

Oh, and now that you pissed me off...Let's show you who's > than who around here. Now, you finally have a legit gripe, I have abused my mod powers.

is the boss here, go cry to him. He needs a good laugh, just like the last tool I abused gave us.

Oh and....

LAKERS > Celtics

Over the entire history of the NBA hte score is: Lakers 37 Celtics 24. That's domination and we didn't take a third of our history off as Boston did (1988-2007). I proved my case, that drought did you in. You coughed up all the advantages you used to have except titles. That's coming back to the Lakers.