Legal immigration

[Krasch]

In general Juan I agree with you. But being able to write a driver's exam in chinese when chinese is not an official language of the country, nor do any traffic signs appear in chinese is irresponsible.

If the applicant's language skills are insufficient to communicate in the languages the signs will be in, the government shouldn't be giving them a side door to write the exam. After all, after they get their license, how well will they drive when they can't understand the signs? And if they can't drive worth a damn, do you really want them to have that license?

[Juan.Camaney]

Originally Posted by Krasch

In general Juan I agree with you. But being able to write a driver's exam in chinese when chinese is not an official language of the country, nor do any traffic signs appear in chinese is irresponsible.

If the applicant's language skills are insufficient to communicate in the languages the signs will be in, the government shouldn't be giving them a side door to write the exam. After all, after they get their license, how well will they drive when they can't understand the signs? And if they can't drive worth a damn, do you really want them to have that license?

First, the US, which is what dictates citizenship, does not have an official language. Official languages can be found on state constitutions. Second, Traffic signs always appear in certain ways. Red, yellow and green are the same in every language. Street signs around here have spanish names anyway, and the geometry and color of the signs are always indicative of what they are, ie orange signs = road construction, white with black type = information, brown and white = recreation, and arrows always point the same way here as they do in Timbuctu (sp?). The only parts of the tests that are in different languages have to do with distances to make turn signals and which way to turn your tires etc. and that you don't need english to do.

Besides, everyone does this to avoid law suits.

Sure, as soon as english is the official language, guess what? Spanish becomes the official secondary language. I believe I was corrected before when I was told english is a business language taught in many other countries to everyone. It is the secondary languages everywhere.

All along mexican roads, signs are in both english and spanish.

[onlyalad]

Originally Posted by Juan.©amaney

First, the US, which is what dictates citizenship, does not have an official language. Official languages can be found on state constitutions. Second, Traffic signs always appear in certain ways. Red, yellow and green are the same in every language. Street signs around here have spanish names anyway, and the geometry and color of the signs are always indicative of what they are, ie orange signs = road construction, white with black type = information, brown and white = recreation, and arrows always point the same way here as they do in Timbuctu (sp?). The only parts of the tests that are in different languages have to do with distances to make turn signals and which way to turn your tires etc. and that you don't need english to do.

Besides, everyone does this to avoid law suits.

Sure, as soon as english is the official language, guess what? Spanish becomes the official secondary language. I believe I was corrected before when I was told english is a business language taught in many other countries to everyone. It is the secondary languages everywhere.

All along mexican roads, signs are in both english and spanish.

The OP was talking about Canada which does have 2 official languages. She was saying that the written test is given in Chinese as well now. Juan I thought you were a California boy. Our DMV test is given in well over 100 languages. I can see her slippery slope argument. In the US there are 322 languages are spoken. However, I can understand the concern. I work in a place where many different languages are spoken. It doesn't upset me that I don't know what they are talking about, if they are not talking to me. However I do sometimes get upset when I need something from someone who does not speak English (the only language that I am partially coherent in). When they need to ask me a question or when I need to ask them one and we have to find someone who speaks both to translate for us. As simple a request as can you take out the trash now or where does it hurt? It causes division and distrust.

It used to be in the US when people came here they wanted to learn English and be a part of the culture. Now when people come here they want to be apart from the culture. I know that there were German-towns and Chinatowns where people who first arrived in the US settled near each other, but the settlers wanted to be included in America taking and giving culture. Canada is starting to feel the issues of identity that the US has been feeling for a while. I think that with America no longer seen as a shiny light to the world and people world wide no longer blinded by its light it no longer was "What can I do to help?, but how can I take advantage of the system?" and the governments are doing the same with legal immigration. Australia, a country founded as a prison colony, was one of the first to say "You can not move here unless we have a need for your services". Now Canada is doing the same. They need young, educated people to create a tax base for the older natives. However, the natives feel like they are being forgotten. It is like going to McDonalds and getting a burger fries and a coke. You are happy with your meal, until they guy at the register tell the next person in line that they can have the same thing with a free toy. When you ask for your toy they tell you it is only for new customers. I think the people in Canada are upset that their government is bending over to entice people to move there and ignoring the people who have been there their whole life.

[Krasch]

Originally Posted by onlyalad

The OP was talking about Canada which does have 2 official languages. She was saying that the written test is given in Chinese as well now. Juan I thought you were a California boy. Our DMV test is given in well over 100 languages. I can see her slippery slope argument. In the US there are 322 languages are spoken. However, I can understand the concern. I work in a place where many different languages are spoken. It doesn't upset me that I don't know what they are talking about, if they are not talking to me. However I do sometimes get upset when I need something from someone who does not speak English (the only language that I am partially coherent in). When they need to ask me a question or when I need to ask them one and we have to find someone who speaks both to translate for us. As simple a request as can you take out the trash now or where does it hurt? It causes division and distrust.

It used to be in the US when people came here they wanted to learn English and be a part of the culture. Now when people come here they want to be apart from the culture. I know that there were German-towns and Chinatowns where people who first arrived in the US settled near each other, but the settlers wanted to be included in America taking and giving culture. Canada is starting to feel the issues of identity that the US has been feeling for a while. I think that with America no longer seen as a shiny light to the world and people world wide no longer blinded by its light it no longer was "What can I do to help?, but how can I take advantage of the system?" and the governments are doing the same with legal immigration. Australia, a country founded as a prison colony, was one of the first to say "You can not move here unless we have a need for your services". Now Canada is doing the same. They need young, educated people to create a tax base for the older natives. However, the natives feel like they are being forgotten. It is like going to McDonalds and getting a burger fries and a coke. You are happy with your meal, until they guy at the register tell the next person in line that they can have the same thing with a free toy. When you ask for your toy they tell you it is only for new customers. I think the people in Canada are upset that their government is bending over to entice people to move there and ignoring the people who have been there their whole life.

Uhhhh, she is actually a he here... lol

But thank you anyway...

And your last sentence perfectly explains this Canucklehead's sentiment.

[Krasch]

Originally Posted by Juan.©amaney

First, the US, which is what dictates citizenship, does not have an official language. Official languages can be found on state constitutions. Second, Traffic signs always appear in certain ways. Red, yellow and green are the same in every language. Street signs around here have spanish names anyway, and the geometry and color of the signs are always indicative of what they are, ie orange signs = road construction, white with black type = information, brown and white = recreation, and arrows always point the same way here as they do in Timbuctu (sp?). The only parts of the tests that are in different languages have to do with distances to make turn signals and which way to turn your tires etc. and that you don't need english to do.

Besides, everyone does this to avoid law suits.

Sure, as soon as english is the official language, guess what? Spanish becomes the official secondary language. I believe I was corrected before when I was told english is a business language taught in many other countries to everyone. It is the secondary languages everywhere.

All along mexican roads, signs are in both english and spanish.

You forget the signs that have street names on them... They're not written in Chinese ideographs, they're in English or French, coincidentally our official languages.

Even the information signs are significant. What good is knowing that it's an information sign just because it's white with black type if you don't know what the type actually says?

If I go to China I shouldn't expect that their signs are in English, nor should I expect to be able to write my driving exam in English there (nor would I actually be able to I'm sure). Like the saying goes, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." Why is that suddenly a bad thing?

[kulotsalot]

OK, sorry I couldn't come back to this thread until now.

First off, Canada has official languages like Krasch said (English and French) and yes it does bother me that you can take the written exam for driving in languages other than English and French. Yes, the major road signs are fairly easy to understand without knowledge of the English language but what about signs that say "DANGER! ROAD CLOSED! MUDSLIDE AHEAD!" or something similar? I think the fact that Canada has official languages (unlike the US) means that we can force people to write important exams in English or French without lawsuits happening. (Besides, people here aren't as sue-happy, I think.)

I was at my electrologist's the other day; she is one of those white people who grew up here etc. She is telling me about how she went to the bank wanting to buy $20 USD and the teller could not understand what she wanted and she had to leave without finishing the transaction because the communication breakdown was just absolute. So here is a native Canadian (not native as in first nations but someone who was born and grew up here) who could not even get a simple transaction sorted out in her hometown because of language barriers. How bad is it that you are in your country of birth, speaking your mother tongue, and somehow you can't get service because they can't understand you? :(

Sometimes I feel like people judge me (and my intelligence) based on the fact that I don't look like I am native to this country and they dumb things down until I open my mouth and they realize that I am not another illiterate immigrant. This bothers me.

I'm starting to develop a pretty big hatred (perhaps that word is a bit strong?) towards people who insist on talking to me in Filipino without asking me if I'm from there or if I know the language. I know it sounds really pretentious but I feel like it's a bit rude of them to presume ANYTHING about my ethnicity and where I grew up etc. Sometimes I want to pretend that I don't understand what it is they are talking about and see what happens.

I am very much in favour of the language testing before accepting immigrants. Actually when we applied, there is a portion on the form where you have to rate (0-5) how good your language skills are in English and French (read/write/speak/understand). No tests, though. I think a few years back they tried to include a testing requirement but A LOT of the immigrants from China cried foul and said they were being discriminated against. (Um, maybe you should just, you know, learn more English instead of making us speak less English??)


--------------

Aside from language, the other big thing is that people native to a nation want to preserve their culture. Question is, what, exactly is your culture? I still haven't figured it out. So far it seems like it's mostly pubs and hockey nights and Christmas and Easter? I'm sorry, but that's not very culture-ish to me. Perhaps the North American natives can explain.

[Juan.Camaney]

I think the topic was legal immigration as a general topic, not just related to Canada. But if I'm wrong, then retract everything I have said since I know nothing of that particular part of the world.

[kulotsalot]

Originally Posted by Juan.©amaney

I think the topic was legal immigration as a general topic, not just related to Canada. But if I'm wrong, then retract everything I have said since I know nothing of that particular part of the world.

Nah, the topic is generalized, just giving the context for Krasch's statements. I know the US doesn't have an official language so for you guys it is hard to justify taking the test in just English.

[Krasch]

Originally Posted by kulotsalot

OK, sorry I couldn't come back to this thread until now.

First off, Canada has official languages like Krasch said (English and French) and yes it does bother me that you can take the written exam for driving in languages other than English and French. Yes, the major road signs are fairly easy to understand without knowledge of the English language but what about signs that say "DANGER! ROAD CLOSED! MUDSLIDE AHEAD!" or something similar? I think the fact that Canada has official languages (unlike the US) means that we can force people to write important exams in English or French without lawsuits happening. (Besides, people here aren't as sue-happy, I think.)

I was at my electrologist's the other day; she is one of those white people who grew up here etc. She is telling me about how she went to the bank wanting to buy $20 USD and the teller could not understand what she wanted and she had to leave without finishing the transaction because the communication breakdown was just absolute. So here is a native Canadian (not native as in first nations but someone who was born and grew up here) who could not even get a simple transaction sorted out in her hometown because of language barriers. How bad is it that you are in your country of birth, speaking your mother tongue, and somehow you can't get service because they can't understand you? :(

Sometimes I feel like people judge me (and my intelligence) based on the fact that I don't look like I am native to this country and they dumb things down until I open my mouth and they realize that I am not another illiterate immigrant. This bothers me.

I'm starting to develop a pretty big hatred (perhaps that word is a bit strong?) towards people who insist on talking to me in Filipino without asking me if I'm from there or if I know the language. I know it sounds really pretentious but I feel like it's a bit rude of them to presume ANYTHING about my ethnicity and where I grew up etc. Sometimes I want to pretend that I don't understand what it is they are talking about and see what happens.

I am very much in favour of the language testing before accepting immigrants. Actually when we applied, there is a portion on the form where you have to rate (0-5) how good your language skills are in English and French (read/write/speak/understand). No tests, though. I think a few years back they tried to include a testing requirement but A LOT of the immigrants from China cried foul and said they were being discriminated against. (Um, maybe you should just, you know, learn more English instead of making us speak less English??)


--------------

Aside from language, the other big thing is that people native to a nation want to preserve their culture. Question is, what, exactly is your culture? I still haven't figured it out. So far it seems like it's mostly pubs and hockey nights and Christmas and Easter? I'm sorry, but that's not very culture-ish to me. Perhaps the North American natives can explain.

Kulotsalot, I could kiss you...

That being said, I could live without testing IMMIGRANTS on admission into the country, although not to get a driver's license etc. After all, my dad emigrated from Germany in 1947 and couldn't speak English or French when he got here. But you better believe he learned quickly. Of course it was encouraged back then, nowadays the government's all over "diversity" so being able to properly communicate with ALL of your fellow citizens isn't important anymore.

At the same time, I'm all for testing refugees on admission. And as for those "refugees" who come here illegally. Ship em back in a crate for all I care. Canada lets near anyone in as it is, so anyone trying to cheat their way in is someone we honestly don't need and shouldn't want in the country.

[Krasch]

Originally Posted by kulotsalot

Nah, the topic is generalized, just giving the context for Krasch's statements. I know the US doesn't have an official language so for you guys it is hard to justify taking the test in just English.

I agree it's harder for the US to justify it, but considering that English Is the language of commerce and government in the US, I think it's appropriate that the tests be restricted to that, and that people who come there should either be fairly fluent in it or have to learn it.

[Juan.Camaney]

Originally Posted by kulotsalot

Nah, the topic is generalized, just giving the context for Krasch's statements. I know the US doesn't have an official language so for you guys it is hard to justify taking the test in just English.

Well in that case, since the topic is legal immigration, and even for your country, some understanding of the host country's language is mandatory, right? So printing tests for them in their language is to help them out a bit? And since driving is a privilege and not a right, I see nothing wrong with printing stuff for them.

I find it rather odd that anyone from a country with 2 official languages would oppose to adding more.

[Krasch]

Originally Posted by Juan.©amaney

Well in that case, since the topic is legal immigration, and even for your country, some understanding of the host country's language is mandatory, right? So printing tests for them in their language is to help them out a bit? And since driving is a privilege and not a right, I see nothing wrong with printing stuff for them.

I find it rather odd that anyone from a country with 2 official languages would oppose to adding more.

It would not appear that "understanding of the host country's languages" is mandatory here for immigrants, at least not in my experience with recent immgrants these days. Maybe it was, I doubt it is now. Few of them ever seem to understand a lick of English when you try to tell them something.

I can't agree with putting tests in their languages to "help them". Are those test going to help them when they can't read the signs afterward? No.

I have no issue with adding more official languages, but until they ARE official I find it egregious that we bend over backwards to "help" these people when the countries they come from in the first place would laugh until they were silly at the mere concept.

[Juan.Camaney]

Krasch, here in US, businesses and government agencies would get sued a lot more than they are now if material wasn't printed in more than english. I don't know how they would do that in Canada though seeing as though there are official languages there.

I really don't care if I have to press a few more buttons to get service in english. If its a business' choice to do so, just to get more business by advertising to all the people they possibly can, great...good for them. I do find it a bit hard to swallow that some minorities DEMAND everything in their language. So I'm not totally one sided on the issue.