Detainee Torture and the CIA

[joerockhead]

Well, here we are again, the Government of ours is selling out people.
Documents are "Leaked" with information that the CIA Interrogation teams "threatened" the leader of the USS Cole Bombing by saying "I will kill your children". They also conducted Mock Executions.

So now, there is talk of charging the CIA Employees with some kind of crimes.

And of course letting the detainee's go home.

1st - This BullShit is just to distract from the whole Health Care fuckup, so congress can bankrupt the country even further

2nd - the info the Government has is flimsy!! It has been stated as "Hear Say" and there are reports that refute it is true. Yet, they "release" this info

And if the CIA folks are charged, then the Terrorists will have a great laugh and know they can do what ever they want, and when the US comes to collect them, they will just cry and apologize, and if we do not accept it, we are the heathens!!!

This country is going in the wrong direction, and I see no one willing to stand up and change it.

[fmb]

You're on the right track, JRH. Yes, even I believe Obama is bringing the interrogation items to the forefront in an effort to take the focus off the healthcare issue. Both he and the democratic party are taking a really heavy beating about healthcare. In politics, if the going gets tough, you have to change the picture. I think it's kinda like the "Wizard of Oz". Don't look behind the curtain!

What I'm having a tough time accepting is on at least two past times, Obama has said there would be no prosecutions and the country would be better off if we moved forward and away from that past issue. Matter of fact, the last time he said this was to CIA employees at a meeting he had with them. To me, if this issue is pressed, this tells me much about Obama. It tells me he will tell me one thing to my face and do another thing if it's politically expedient for him to do so. (Well, that sounds like what any politician would do.) I'd have to say loyalty to people isn't one of his strong points. Maybe his idea of loyalty is devotion to an ideology.

[lissof]

i for one do not disagree with torture and other good interrogation methods. If it saves lives of even 1 of our soldiers or prevents some attack and name one of those countries that wouldn't do it to one of our guys. and obama....

[ravenshrike]

Originally Posted by fmb

What I'm having a tough time accepting is on at least two past times, Obama has said there would be no prosecutions and the country would be better off if we moved forward and away from that past issue. Matter of fact, the last time he said this was to CIA employees at a meeting he had with them. To me, if this issue is pressed, this tells me much about Obama. It tells me he will tell me one thing to my face and do another thing if it's politically expedient for him to do so. (Well, that sounds like what any politician would do.) I'd have to say loyalty to people isn't one of his strong points. Maybe his idea of loyalty is devotion to an ideology.

According to pretty well substantiated rumor there was a screaming match with Panetta earlier over the issue and he's probably going to resign in disgust.

[CD]

Originally Posted by joerockhead

1st - This BullShit is just to distract from the whole Health Care fuckup, so congress can bankrupt the country even further

Conspiracies on the party you aren't affiliated with are always easier to see or claim.

Originally Posted by joerockhead

2nd - the info the Government has is flimsy!! It has been stated as "Hear Say" and there are reports that refute it is true. Yet, they "release" this info

So that government info is flimsy, but the connection between Al-Quida and Saddam was rock solid? This Presidency was started with a more "open government" as the basis. I think openness is a good thing when the organization involved (US Government) is as powerful as they come.

Originally Posted by joerockhead

And if the CIA folks are charged, then the Terrorists will have a great laugh and know they can do what ever they want, and when the US comes to collect them, they will just cry and apologize, and if we do not accept it, we are the heathens!!!

This country is going in the wrong direction, and I see no one willing to stand up and change it.

The terrorists are not going to stop no matter what is said or done or our end of the world. If you honestly think that this affects their long term or short term plans for killing people, then you need to step back and realize that their mindset is set in stone, and stories like this mean little to them.

[joerockhead]

Yeah, if OUR governments info on Iraq and Al-Quida was strong (i.e. BS) then imagine how strong this shit is.

President Obama said the matter would be dropped. Yet, did he LIE??? And the timing of this is BS too.

Also, it has nothing to do with the party, I hate ALL of the liars in Congress!! If the Republican Party was so freakin good, they would have come up with a Medical plan to counter the current one. They have not, so they are just as Lame as the Dems!!!!!

Any Motivation to these people is Good for them, no matter what you think.

If you think it doesn't matter then YOU need to step back and think. They will always be there, but demobilization can slow them.

Our Country started to go in a bad direction in 03 (the lies and violation of rights and poor planning for ending IRAQ), and it just keeps on getting worse. Our Government has NOT gotten better. Not Just Iraq, but Afghanistan and on our own land.

[ravenshrike]

Originally Posted by CD

but the connection between Al-Quida and Saddam was rock solid?

Actually, yes it was. He provided basing and money. That being said, there's no way AQ was stupid enough to let Saddam know about any plans that didn't directly concern his area, if they actually let him in on any of their actual ops, which is somewhat dubious. Of course, the claim that Saddam was linked directly to 9/11 came from a democrat.

This Presidency was started with a more "open government" as the basis.

Hah. Hahahhahahheeeeee. Oh, that's fucking funny. He lied. Lied through his fucking teeth before he was elected, and continually has lied right up to this fucking day. There has been NO real transparency attempted anywhere with the Obama government. The only reason you're even seeing this now is because he's attempting(quite poorly I might add) to wag the dog.

[licupssy]

I wouldn't doubt it's a ploy to put pressure on the Republicans. It's one thing to investigate an agent for going out of bonds but to publicly investigate what happens behind closed doors as a matter of duty for the benefit of our country is another. Getting information from international criminals hell bent on killing Americans and destroying our way of life isn't going to be had by normal means.

I don't think it helped. Of course with Kennedy's death, it's giving them something else to use to try to push through bad legislation. You're not going to see any health care plan from the republicans when when the stimulus package has thrown our taxpayers into massive debt that will still be around when I'm long gone.

A health care plan for 50 million people that will cost the taxpayer a trillion dollars doesn't make sense. Medicaid might be nice if you didn't have to be poor to get it. Medicare may sound good until you get it and find it costing you over 20% of your social security payment. Add a supplement and your paying out the same premiums as any other heath care plan and getting a lot worse care. Now, the question is for those that can't afford a health care plan now, how are you going to pay the premiums on the new government run plan.

The main reason I had for not voting for Obama was he was making to many promises he would probably never be able to keep or make things worse by trying.

Take a look at everything promised and see what's been accomplished.

Close Gitmo ~ build new prison in US to house Gitmo prisoners. Sounds like a waste of money to me and less safer then having them in Cuba.

Iraq pull out ~ things have gotten worse since the pull out. Either there will be a big increase in troops to bring things back to the way it was or a Vietnam style pull out giving the country up to a terrorist government. The troops won't be coming home though. They'll be on their way to Afghanistan.

The economy ~ has the stimulus package really helped when you figure it's cost to future taxpayers?

Cash for clunkers ~ sounds great but if you have to drive a clunker you probably won't be able to keep up the payments and increased auto insurance on a new car.

Health care ~ If you don't have insurance will you be able to buy into the new government plan? If you already have health insurance will you appreciate the tax increase to pay for the government plan?

Obama seems to be a nice guy but I'll be surprised if he ends up with a higher rating than Bush by the end of his term.

[ravenshrike]

Ah yes, it's pretty funny, when the whole health care thing started Limbaugh publicly stated that if Kennedy croaked before it passed that some dumb democrat asshole would try to name the bill after him and lo and behold ChappaquiddiCare.

[Krasch]

Originally Posted by joerockhead

Yeah, if OUR governments info on Iraq and Al-Quida was strong (i.e. BS) then imagine how strong this shit is.

President Obama said the matter would be dropped. Yet, did he LIE??? And the timing of this is BS too.

Also, it has nothing to do with the party, I hate ALL of the liars in Congress!! If the Republican Party was so freakin good, they would have come up with a Medical plan to counter the current one. They have not, so they are just as Lame as the Dems!!!!!

Any Motivation to these people is Good for them, no matter what you think.

If you think it doesn't matter then YOU need to step back and think. They will always be there, but demobilization can slow them.

Our Country started to go in a bad direction in 03 (the lies and violation of rights and poor planning for ending IRAQ), and it just keeps on getting worse. Our Government has NOT gotten better. Not Just Iraq, but Afghanistan and on our own land.

Exact;y right. Getting rid of terrorists altogether is no doubt impossible, but hampering their operations and infrastructure to the point that they're effectively impotent is certainly possible. The alternative just gives them carte blanche to cause whatever mayhem they will.

[joerockhead]

Originally Posted by licupssy

I wouldn't doubt it's a ploy to put pressure on the Republicans. It's one thing to investigate an agent for going out of bonds but to publicly investigate what happens behind closed doors as a matter of duty for the benefit of our country is another. Getting information from international criminals hell bent on killing Americans and destroying our way of life isn't going to be had by normal means.

I don't think it helped. Of course with Kennedy's death, it's giving them something else to use to try to push through bad legislation. You're not going to see any health care plan from the republicans when when the stimulus package has thrown our taxpayers into massive debt that will still be around when I'm long gone.

A health care plan for 50 million people that will cost the taxpayer a trillion dollars doesn't make sense. Medicaid might be nice if you didn't have to be poor to get it. Medicare may sound good until you get it and find it costing you over 20% of your social security payment. Add a supplement and your paying out the same premiums as any other heath care plan and getting a lot worse care. Now, the question is for those that can't afford a health care plan now, how are you going to pay the premiums on the new government run plan.

The main reason I had for not voting for Obama was he was making to many promises he would probably never be able to keep or make things worse by trying.

Take a look at everything promised and see what's been accomplished.

Close Gitmo ~ build new prison in US to house Gitmo prisoners. Sounds like a waste of money to me and less safer then having them in Cuba.

Iraq pull out ~ things have gotten worse since the pull out. Either there will be a big increase in troops to bring things back to the way it was or a Vietnam style pull out giving the country up to a terrorist government. The troops won't be coming home though. They'll be on their way to Afghanistan.

The economy ~ has the stimulus package really helped when you figure it's cost to future taxpayers?

Cash for clunkers ~ sounds great but if you have to drive a clunker you probably won't be able to keep up the payments and increased auto insurance on a new car.

Health care ~ If you don't have insurance will you be able to buy into the new government plan? If you already have health insurance will you appreciate the tax increase to pay for the government plan?

Obama seems to be a nice guy but I'll be surprised if he ends up with a higher rating than Bush by the end of his term.

Wow, stated far better then I could. Thank you!

[supersatch]

I can only say so much about this topic without going secure, but if you're interested, the governing orders on intel collection are on google.

Executive Order 12333 and Executive Order 12334
(Sorry, I didn't link them)

[Abbylicious]

Originally Posted by joerockhead

This country is going in the wrong direction, and I see no one willing to stand up and change it.

Then write a bill. Start a petition for your congressman or representative to enact it and introduce it for consideration.

Unfortunately, private citizens cannot introduce legislation. Which is BULLSHIT, because it's OUR fucking country.

Hell I would write a bill and start a petition myself but I don't have people willing to help me with it and I don't trust the way I word things sometimes. Maybe you'll do well with it.

[joerockhead]

As a Side note, no one seems to realize that by bringing the Terrorists to NYC, and giving them a civilian trial, opens a whole bunch of doors that should not be opened.

1 - The Defense gets to know how the evidence was collected - I.e. HOw did the CIA do it's job? Where did the CIA Get it's info? - The CIA will be on trial, and that is exactly what Obama wants!

2 - What part did President Bush play in the detainee interrogation while in Cuba?

3 - What part did the Military play, what kinds of rights did they violate?

4 - the fact that the detainees where never given Miranda rights means a lot of the questions and answers are null and void.


Yup, this was a planned idea to keep our country in a whole.