So FMB was right! Obama, OH BUMMMER!

[ddoubleez]

Much due respect to FMB.... I was a fool.. I will eat some crow, along with a slice of humble pie... All politicians are the same!...

I will remind you that I never endorced him, nor belived him, and I will still say he was the only choice, but seems that all politicans are all, almost, the same...

I rembember a quote from fmb, about someone tapping their boot, and all politicans being the same....


Posted by Jim Hightower


The bad news is that Obama has thrust more Americans ever deeper into the vortex of his Afghanistan war. But the good news is that he flatly promised to "begin the transfer of our forces out of Afghanistan in July of 2011." So, it's a short term commitment, right?

Uh... not exactly. No sooner had he spoken than a covey of top officials rushed forth with a flurry of statements to "explain" what the President really meant. "We're going to be in the region for a long time," said Obama's national security advisor, Gen. James Jones. "There isn't a deadline," deadpanned Pentagon Chief Robert Gates, who elaborated by saying that Obama's pledge of a July 2011 withdrawal would merely involve "some handful" of troops, "some small number," or as he eloquently concluded, "whatever."

Got that? Whatever.

In case you still don't grasp that our 100,000 soldiers and untold billions of our dollars are going to be stuck in Afghan Hell for many many years (not months), heed the candid comments of Hamid Karzai, the corrupt Afghanistan president whom our troops have been sent to prop up. His estimate is that it will take a minimum of five years to recruit and train enough Afghan security forces to allow American troops to begin any substantial withdrawal. The cost to U.S. taxpayers for those five years of training: $50 billion.

But even that's not the end of it. Afghanistan is impoverished, so we'll have to keep financing their military. For how long? At least until 2024, says Karzai.

Afghanistan has become Absurdistan. Obama has tumbled into a Shakespearean level of folly – but Congress doesn't have to let him take us there. Bring our troops home. Now. To help, call United for Peace and Justice (212) 868-5545


Hi-ho, hi-ho, it's off to war we go! Pound the drums loudly, stand with your country proudly!

Wait, wait, wait – hold it right there. Cut the music, slow the rush, and let's all ponder what Obama, Gates, McChrystal & company are getting us into ... and whether we really want to go there. After all, just because the White House and the Pentagon are waving the flag and insisting that a major escalation of America's military mission in Afghanistan is a "necessity" doesn't mean it is ... or that We The People must accept it.

Remember the wisdom of Mark Twain about war whooping generals and politicians: "Loyalty to the country always. Loyalty to the government when it deserves it."

How many more hundreds of dead American solders (and thousands more who'll be mangled and shattered) does the government's "new" Afghan policy deserve? How many more tens of billions of dollars should we let them siphon from our public treasury to fuel their war policy? We've been lied to for nearly a decade about "success" in Iraq and Afghanistan – why do the hawks deserve our trust that this time will be different?

I had hoped Obama might be a more forceful leader who would reject the same old interventionist mindset of those who profit from permanent war. But his newly announced Afghan policy shows he is not that leader.

So we must look elsewhere, starting with ourselves. The first job of a citizen is to keep your mouth open. Obama is wrong on this – deadly wrong – and those who see how wrong he is have both a moral and patriotic duty to reach out to others to inform, organize and mobilize our grassroots objections.

This is no time to be deferential to executive authority. It's our country, not theirs. Stand up. Speak out. We are America – and ultimately, we have the power and responsibility.

[joerockhead]

Much due respect to FMB.... I was a fool.. I will eat some crow, along with a slice of humble pie... All politicians are the same!...

I will remind you that I never endorced him, nor belived him, and I will still say he was the only choice, but seems that all politicans are all, almost, the same...

I rembember a quote from fmb, about someone tapping their boot, and all politicans being the same....



You Never endorsed him?

I recall threads where you totally supported Obama and slammed people that did not.

But hey, it is cool.

Maybe other threads will give you more forethought.

[supersatch]

Good to see your head stabalizing D. Though I think that your statement doesn't explain what is wrong with him, and I am 100% a hawk (I participate in the war though) the fact that you recognize that his words have just been wool over the eyes and not words of substance is good. No president has brought forth what he has promised... ever. And if he has, it was never what he led us to expect.

[macho biscuit]

.................

I will remind you that I never endorced him, nor belived him, and I will still say he was the only choice, but seems that all politicans are all, almost, the same...

.............

sorry to sound like a broken record buuuuuutttt............

he WASN"T the only choice. Bob Barr, the libertarian candidate was a perfectly viable choice, but somehow people don't recognize that we do actually have more than two parties. the media and others make it sound and seem like there isn't an alternative to dems and repubs, but there is.

ok, ill step down from the soapbox now.

[Juan.Camaney]

You Never endorsed him?

I recall threads where you totally supported Obama and slammed people that did not.

But hey, it is cool.

Maybe other threads will give you more forethought.
http://myblogsg.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/mccain_touched_nose.jpg

I really don't want to say I told you so. But many of us were bashed for not thinking progresively. I understand the hatred that many had for Bush, but anyone but Bush was not the answer. You have a man who denies his white heritage, befriends muslim and black extremists, who smokes but denies doing it regularly, smoked marijuana openly as a child and fails to legalize it, and who has just as many $$$ interests as any other politician. You get the same shit in a different wrapper. We've been getting this for a while.

[BackdoorJesus]

I really don't want to say I told you so. But many of us were bashed for not thinking progressively. I understand the hatred that many had for Bush, but anyone but Bush was not the answer.
yep what he said

[michaeljohn]

No president has brought forth what he has promised... ever. And if he has, it was never what he led us to expect.

Not to take this off topic, but this statement is false.

Nixon, in 1968, promised he would get the 18 year old the vote. He also pledged to end American involvement in Viet Nam and let them fight it. (Vietnamization of the war). He delievered on both which is why he won by a landslide in 1972.

Now, for a couple of false promises to back your statement up:

George Bush Sr. 1988 "I want to be known as the Education President"
Bill Clinton 1992 "I will get health care for every man, woman, and child in America".

Back on topic by tying in my off topic banter: Viet Nam lost the war with our plan. What president wants to be known as the one who lost it? Desert Storm 1991 was all about redemption for not winning Viet Nam. However, you can't blame Nixon for losing it, we didn't want the war. Our own generals didn't know how to fight it to win, and that dates back to LBJ and Kennedy. Heck, the French lost it first, in 1954, that used to be their colony. The French were driven out by the Japanese in WWII. When they came back after the allies won, the Vietnamese revolution was born. They got tired of being controlled by foreign powers.

So, I don't blame Obama for keeping the fight going in Afghanistan.

[supersatch]

Not to take this off topic, but this statement is false.

Nixon, in 1968, promised he would get the 18 year old the vote. He also pledged to end American involvement in Viet Nam and let them fight it. (Vietnamization of the war). He delievered on both which is why he won by a landslide in 1972.

Now, for a couple of false promises to back your statement up:

George Bush Sr. 1988 "I want to be known as the Education President"
Bill Clinton 1992 "I will get health care for every man, woman, and child in America".

Back on topic by tying in my off topic banter: Viet Nam lost the war with our plan. What president wants to be known as the one who lost it? Desert Storm 1991 was all about redemption for not winning Viet Nam. However, you can't blame Nixon for losing it, we didn't want the war. Our own generals didn't know how to fight it to win, and that dates back to LBJ and Kennedy. Heck, the French lost it first, in 1954, that used to be their colony. The French were driven out by the Japanese in WWII. When they came back after the allies won, the Vietnamese revolution was born. They got tired of being controlled by foreign powers.

So, I don't blame Obama for keeping the fight going in Afghanistan.

Yeah, I figured my statement was a little too definate not to be called out. Good job MJ.

I think that it's a bad idea to pull out anyway. People do not understand that the taliban is a highly organized, highly effective militia unit. I was humbled by the organization of their army. I though it would be just like Iraq. These are not just random bombers and idealists that found a klashnikov. And they not ony pose a great threat to the afghan people, but to their neighbors, and to us as well.

no one seemed to realize what we walked into. everyone wants a quick war. They want another Grenada or Desert Storm. That is not how real wars are. You have to be in it for the long haul. Afghanistan is the graveyard of empires. And to leave now would be to bury ourselves beside the others and submit to the terrorist training camps and the safe haven for planning of future attacks on the US that the country would become.

Sorry. I'll get off my soapbox now.

[michaeljohn]

Here, I'll get on my soap box. I remember when the USSR invaded Afghanistan in 1979. There was friendly banter going on among my co-workers and I was that there were two reasons why the Russkies went in:

1) Russia was fearful of a USA invasion of Iran. Remember, Khomeni was in power and the US Embassy hostages were still pawns in his game.

2) Russia has always sought a warm water port. If they take Afghanistan, they then have a choice of their next invasion points; Iran and Pakistan. So, we were kidding fellow employees of both Iran and Pakistan if their families were going to take Russian language lessons.

Which brings me to my point. Why not ally with Russia and just knock the Taliban right out? Russia lost, but it was partially our fault, we armed the resistance. Russia probably wants a little redemption themselves. They took control of eastern Europe after WWII for the simple reason they didn't want any country invading theirs again. They won the war for the allies. England and France appeased Hitler eastward, and 20+ million Soviet citizens paid with their lives.

Russia has been our ally before, let them help foot the bill.

[Car Enthusiast]

50 billion over 5 years doesn't seem that bad of an expense to me

[michaeljohn]

50 billion over 5 years doesn't seem that bad of an expense to me

Number bug...

I agree with this whole-heartedly. See, it's simple. Let's leave Iraq out of this and focus only on Afghanistan. The Taliban were supporting Al-Qaeda, and gave them sanctuary. We either go in, or we don't. If we don't and we see more terrorist BS inflicted on our country, shame on us. What do you tell the families who lost loved ones? We didn't want to spend money to engage in war? Geez, we have nukes they don't. I am not supporting using them but for crying out loud, we have the power to do incredible damage and if we did nuke them, the world just might understand. We used them on Japan to avoid the death toll an invasion would have brought on us. Who knows what will happen over there.

The alternative is to just pull out. Then, like Viet Nam, our side loses and Al Qaeda is back in business. The bleeding heart liberals just don't get it. They would rather be Red than Dead.

[michaeljohn]

See, what the pacifists don't consider is why we fight a war. Yeah, if we keep the war going, soldiers are going to die. That's our history, that's world history. It goes back to cavemen days for crying out loud.

War is war. Japan targeted military assets at Pearl Harbor: Ships, planes, personell that could operate the assets. They needed oil to survive as a nation and the only way they were going to do that was invade southeast Asia for petoleum. If they don't knock the USA out of the picture, they fight us over there immediately instead of down the line.

Terrorism is bullshit. It isn't war. It has no military value. It seeks to scare us all and disrupt our lives and economy. All those terrorist muslims rot in hell for their jihad, there is no reward for them. It is our military's responsibility to fight the war on terror. It's exactly the same thing in a military war. If a foreign power invaded the USA, we need them to protect us. So, we stay in Afghanistan until we win.

Let me ask this. Why hasn't Al Qaeda struck the USA since 9-11? Because we are in Afghansitan fucking them over.

[fmb]

Deez, glad to see you back in the forum; not so happy to see you think I may have been right about politicians. In some ways, I think all politicians would like to achieve the same end result, the different political parties choose different paths to attain a common goal. In this manner, the politicians appear to provide "choices" for the people. Note any particular party attempts to vilify the other party; there is always an "us" versus "them" mentality.

Obama has done a pretty good job fending off significant criticism of his war plans. I've found it rather amazing few news outlets (and bloggers) haven't posted pre-election videos of his statements about the true war focus being on Afghanistan, appropriate funding and supplies should be provided to our war fighters, the war should be fought like a street fight, etc. If you have reviewed his previous statements, you'll note Obama hasn't kept nearly any of them (concerning Afghanistan). I'm very surprised the anti-war supporters haven't yet castrated him.

Having said that, here is my personal take on Obama's promise to "make Afghanistan a priority": he is a miserable liar that used some citizens personal feelings in order to gain votes. Here's why I say that: if the Afghan war was such a high priority, why did it take him about nine months to formulate his war strategy? His press releases have said Afghanistan is too important to screw up and took lots of time; however, the push for health care, cap and trade, and TARP funding has been so "important" there wasn't time to debate the issues, post writtten copies of bills and amendments for review, and vote on the bills in the light of day and within view of our citizens. These issues were more important than kicking some ass, correcting some problems, and getting our hard fighting, ass kicking, top notch, forces back home and with their families? Bullshit. Nine months? He should stop acting like an ass clown. Screw him and his posse.

I'm not some panty waisted, limp wristed, war protester (no offense to those not approving of the war...). My belief about fighting relates to the elementary school playground. The playground bully can be an ass; however, there are a few ways to deal with the bully. First, you could chat (State Department? :) ) with the asshat and see what his issue is. This method rarely works. (those of you leaning politically leaning to the left, note my words) Another option is to punch the bully in the nose (Department of Defense :) ), make him cry like a girl, and leave the impression (no pun intended) that you're not one to be fooled with. In my experience, option number two has a higher success rate...

[supersatch]

FMB, I think that is the most agressive language I've seen you use yet. Way to go! Tell us how you REALLY feel!

MJ, perfectly said. What do you tell the parents of all the men who died over there already? "Sorry, but we need that money to fund the health care bill, and because of a fickle public, we're pulling out, making your son's death pointless. Thanks for the effort though!"

I don't know what exactly it was that did it, but you got my adrenaline pumping. We'll cuddle later.