socialized health care? really?

[macho biscuit]

Why do so many americans want socialized health care? There are plenty of examples of Canadians and Europeans who hate their socialized health care system, not to mention anyone who has been in the military has had socialized heath care and knows it is not all that great.

Without the competition of private doctors trying to outdo each other for your business, the quality of health care goes down, and it's not all the great right now.

Yet so many dumb lazy asses see "Free healthcare" as a good thing it's quite possible i will have to suffer for their stupidity. there is nothing "free" from the government. someone has to pay for it, and that someone is us.

and i don't want to pay for shitty healthcare.

[Krasch]

Why do so many americans want socialized health care? There are plenty of examples of Canadians and Europeans who hate their socialized health care system, not to mention anyone who has been in the military has had socialized heath care and knows it is not all that great.

Without the competition of private doctors trying to outdo each other for your business, the quality of health care goes down, and it's not all the great right now.

Yet so many dumb lazy asses see "Free healthcare" as a good thing it's quite possible i will have to suffer for their stupidity. there is nothing "free" from the government. someone has to pay for it, and that someone is us.

and i don't want to pay for shitty healthcare.

There are also plenty of examples of Americans losing their homes because they can't pay for their healthcare bills. There is plenty of quality health care in Canada and elsewhere. Toronto's Sick Kids Hospital is a world leader in pediatric care and has people come from all over the world including the US to take advantage of their skills. That's just one example. Not everything is covered by any means, mind you. There are many things in health care we Canuckleheads have to pay for out of pocket. But at least for most things we don't have to worry about losing our shirts and homes because of a hospital bill.

That said, there are most definitely flaws with both systems, whichever way you go.

[Juan.Camaney]

I watched part of the movie sicko and was amazed at some of the other countries' policies. The one where the guy was on vacation in england (I think) and he broke a bone, then they took him in, fixed him up, he paid nothing out of pocket and the only "cashier" was to give the patient money so he can get home safely...that just amazed me.

About a year ago, I lost my best friend to a quad riding accident. The doctors at the hospital where they took him in wanted $10,000 deposit just to start trying to save him. I think that is bullshit. Had it been the president or some other motherfucker with obvious deep pockets or influence, they would have tried to perform miracles.

Anyway....the US is just fucked up when it comes to government agencies and politicians. Socialized medicine would work if the people trully kept the people's interest in mind. But they don't. The medical industry is as much a business as selling crack! They don't want to save your life, they want to get you addiceted to their meds, and fix you up enough so you keep going back to them for check ups...its their livelyhood!

In my opinion, the US can't transition from private to social at this point. What they need to do is establish more standards on the gouging some of these motherfuckers try to pass off as health care.

[macho biscuit]

.......... The medical industry is as much a business as selling crack! ..........

this is so much more true than anyone actually realizes.

i work in a hospital. people don't understand that private hospitals have CEO's and a Board of Directors calling most of the shots and making most of the decisions. a hospital is a business, doctors are just like a mechanics or plumbers, except they deal with humans' lives. people forget seem to forget this.

i'm not saying doctors don't care about the patients, most do, but it's the bottom line of the financial statement that drives the hospital's train.

[fmb]

Amen, macho biscuit. I'm not sure how American's came to see a hospital as a facility where simple economics do not apply. Money may come in, but lots of the money goes back out the door. Nurses, med techs, janitorial staff, emergency managers, patient advocates, new equipment (CAT and MRI scanners, etc) and advertising eat huge portions of the accounts receivable. Through in care for those patients unable or unwilling to pay and there isn't alot left for providing things such as new or expanded services or renovating older facilities to comply with current building codes.

Something I've thought about was the original health discussion was about individuals which did not have any health insurance. Somehow, the conversation went toward CARE. Health care and health insurance are (or should be) separate issues.

[joerockhead]

....the US is just fucked up when it comes to government agencies and politicians. Socialized medicine would work if the people trully kept the people's interest in mind. But they don't. .........

Sadly, this is so true. But we are to blame too!!

We keep voting in the Same Damn Corrupt people!!!!
We need to vote in new people Each and Every election!!


Seriously!!! Then we can get change.

But people are sheep and scared of change that these corrupt people claim will be bad.

Hell, Even Obama has not been that bad except for the massive debt, Government health Care, and continues printing of US Dollars that will make a dollar equal a penny in two years.

[dan18apple]

i really it is overdue for america to have a good national health care system. It would reduce the burdens on employers, but there is a bigger issue Americans should really look after the fellow Americans and stop dodging their social responsibilities at drop of a hat always. All the health care professions realise well funded national system is the only way to reduce medical costs and duplication of cost in health care.

[fmb]

The problem with socialization, or whatever it may be called, of our health system is the government. Name a single government entity that's a leader or innovator compared to the private sector. Medicare? No. Medicaid? No. Mail or parcel delivery? No. Local DMV office? Nope.

Government provision of anything isn't the answer; however, government regulation or establishment of a standard could be the answer. Well, at least part of the solution. If you think things will get better because the government becomes involved in the process, you've been living in another dimension.

[joerockhead]

i really it is overdue for america to have a good national health care system. It would reduce the burdens on employers, but there is a bigger issue Americans should really look after the fellow Americans and stop dodging their social responsibilities at drop of a hat always. All the health care professions realise well funded national system is the only way to reduce medical costs and duplication of cost in health care.

You are so wrong. Costs will NOT go down!!! Hell, the Government cannot even run the Postal service nor AmTrak without paying way too much money!!
And both are broke!!

The biggest issue with health care is three Items -

1 - Doctor's having to pay ridiculous rates for insurance due to BS lawsuits
2 - People Refusing to get regular check ups, because even if they have insurance, they still have to pay out of pocket.
3 - Uninsured people and illegals - Our system would help a large portion of this, but my rates will not go down and I will have to wait longer for a checkup.

Here are a couple of not talked about points -

If the so called 50 Million people suddenly got health care, where are the extra doctors, nurses and hospitals coming from? If you have to wait 3-4 weeks for an appointment now, you will have to wait 3-4 Months.

The Government has not even gotten Cash For Clunkers working right!!!:usuck:

The Whole thing will not start until 2013, and it will be so fucked up with changes, that we all will be paying!!!!

And imagine how big our deficit will be by then!!! :jimi:

[fmb]

Some good points, JRH. I'm unsure of the 2013 timetable, but I notice it's conveniently after the 2012 Presidential and Congressional elections.

[bleh123]

National highway transportation system. National Transportation Safety Board. Occupational health and safety administration. Food and drug administration. Security and exchanges commission. Federal Deposit Insurance Corperation. Global positioning system. Federal Air Administration. Federal Comminication Commission (as much as I hate them because of what I feel is clear violation of the 1'st admenment by resrticting free speeach, they do a good job of what they are supposed to do). Here is a good one: MEDICARE. Yah that's right, ask any senior citizen who is on it and most of them will tell you it rocks, though not in such young-man's terms...

Oh....what's that thing called that we're using right now? THE INTERNET. And believe me, just look at what ATT charges Steve Mobaholics for using the Internet on their Iphones (does anyone else wonder why the i is uncapitalized in Apple products?), I thank God everyday that the government developed the Internet and intended it to remain free and open as a communications channel because otherwise, we'd all have to pay out of our ass in order to have access to it.

Thanks to the government, you can expect to work in a reasonably safe place (and if you happen to have a dangerous job at least you're not helpless and don't have to depend on sheister lawyers who just want money), can read this post I am writing right now, can eat most of your food with the expectation that it is safe for you to eat (and the labels are accurate so if you have allergies), can trade stocks comfortably (obviously there is risk involved, but at least you can depend on your broker actually placing your order and not taking your money), can not have my ass reamed by monopolies, can deposit my money safely in bank accounts, drive to and from work safely, fly with reasonable comfort that whenever there is a previous crash, it's cause will be determined and future crashes will be prevented (making airline travel the safest mode of transportation, period.) and also be able to drive (or drop a missile) anywhere in the world with pinpoint accuracy.


Please don't tell me the government cannot do anything right....



The problem with socialization, or whatever it may be called, of our health system is the government. Name a single government entity that's a leader or innovator compared to the private sector. Medicare? No. Medicaid? No. Mail or parcel delivery? No. Local DMV office? Nope.

Government provision of anything isn't the answer; however, government regulation or establishment of a standard could be the answer. Well, at least part of the solution. If you think things will get better because the government becomes involved in the process, you've been living in another dimension.

[bleh123]

Doctors do have to pay ridiculous rates for insurance, but it's only a small part of the problem and is not the main leading cause of the problem. I think another reason people don't like to go to regular checkups is the potentially long wait and the ridiculous friggin' hoops you have to go through with the f*********** ** *#&@(*&@(*#%^@(*^% staff just to get an appointment in their crammed schedule (does anyone else's doctor have an "answering service" -- as in a person whose only job is to pickup the phone in order to not answer any of your questions and tell you to call back later between certain times?)

However, I am surprised you did not mention anything about the huge trend of specialization amongst doctors. There is going to be shortage of 10,000 general practitioner doctors in 10 years because they are paid the least, and that will only lead to more and worst of what I described above. Those people are the front-lines of healthcare, yet the money is in specialized treatment of specific illnesses, which isn't necessarily a bad thing since it is good to have specialist...

You are so wrong. Costs will NOT go down!!! Hell, the Government cannot even run the Postal service nor AmTrak without paying way too much money!!
And both are broke!!

The biggest issue with health care is three Items -

1 - Doctor's having to pay ridiculous rates for insurance due to BS lawsuits
2 - People Refusing to get regular check ups, because even if they have insurance, they still have to pay out of pocket.
3 - Uninsured people and illegals - Our system would help a large portion of this, but my rates will not go down and I will have to wait longer for a checkup.

Here are a couple of not talked about points -

If the so called 50 Million people suddenly got health care, where are the extra doctors, nurses and hospitals coming from? If you have to wait 3-4 weeks for an appointment now, you will have to wait 3-4 Months.

The Government has not even gotten Cash For Clunkers working right!!!:usuck:

The Whole thing will not start until 2013, and it will be so fucked up with changes, that we all will be paying!!!!

And imagine how big our deficit will be by then!!! :jimi:

[bleh123]

Anyway, here is my two cents on this whole health care thing. I really don't know which way is better: government or privatized. But I do know we need to change something and it's a damn good thing we're talking about it (hopefully there is actual debate going on). More and more people cannot afford health care and that should be unacceptable considering that we have the best friggin' health care system that money can buy-- no one does things better than us (ignoring availability and cost and all that) and no country has better medical schools or research universities than the United States of America and I dare you to prove me wrong.


Anyway, I brought this up in a topic I posted a long time ago, but I seriously believe the most important issue facing America right now is our education system. I want this healthcare hoopla to die down soon so we can get back to the more serious issues at hand. Go ahead and check out my post on education if you want to discuss it with me there (since I guess it's off-topic)

[joerockhead]

Anyway, here is my two cents on this whole health care thing. I really don't know which way is better: government or privatized. But I do know we need to change something and it's a damn good thing we're talking about it (hopefully there is actual debate going on). More and more people cannot afford health care and that should be unacceptable considering that we have the best friggin' health care system that money can buy-- no one does things better than us (ignoring availability and cost and all that) and no country has better medical schools or research universities than the United States of America and I dare you to prove me wrong.


Anyway, I brought this up in a topic I posted a long time ago, but I seriously believe the most important issue facing America right now is our education system. I want this healthcare hoopla to die down soon so we can get back to the more serious issues at hand. Go ahead and check out my post on education if you want to discuss it with me there (since I guess it's off-topic)


I agree, something does need to be done, but not the plan they are currently pushing. There needs to be a plan available to people that are unemployed, or very poor. However, if they get somethign for free, then they have no need to strive or work for something.

Again, the system is not really broke, but it is skewed.

Our Government is going to break it!

[dan18apple]

i would forget the useless Bush administration who appealed only to worst aspects of Americans such as conceit, selfishness and indifference.

Although socialised healthcare is touted by the democrats, unfortunately like most good reform in America it will have to implemented by a republican administration or republican majority senate or congress for it to occur. Having a national health care system is positive step for a country which prides itself on be a land of justice, to be honest if justified to use taxpayers money to bail out crappy banks or industry or weapons developer then it justified to have national health care which actually looks after americans, although it not cost efficient. i think its about time people got their priorites straight in the US.

there is no justification for a country on hand to spend billions of taxpayer money on weapons and at the same time be so cheap on the care of fellow americans regarding healthcare and education, because ultimately the United States stands up only on shoulders of it citizens. It is amazing how this healthcare issue has exposed the lack of patriotism among americans. Its funny how so many people were flying the stars and stripes regarding invading Iraq and Afghanistan as if this was a sign of patriotism.

[ravenshrike]

Remind me exactly how pretending TANSTAAFL doesn't exist and incorporating that into your entire campaign platform isn't appealing to people's selfishness and indifference again? Especially when the NHS is the THIRD largest single employer in the world? Let's not forget about shit like this (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2009/08/10/bc-coastal-health-cuts-dix.html).

[BackdoorJesus]

This shit won't fly.

Not enough money to go into it now what with all the other social & recovery programs Obama has already initiated.

Furthermore Obama is losing traction with his own base (no surprise there - Dems are notoriously wishy-washy) so I would not get too worked up over this issue.

If it goes through in any way shape or form, it will no doubt be watered down to a re-vamped Medicare or some such crap that only the indigent can take advantage of; certainly not a National Health Insurance plan for "all" people, as promised.

[clenny]

Juan, you're dead on. At this point, to try to transform the US healthcare system into a socialized system would cause too much upheaval and there would be so many unintended consequences. That said, the problem with our health system is that it is for profit. This explains why insurance companies have an incentive to deny care rather than provide it. This is why insurance companies use rescission, pre-existing conditions and inadvertent omissions on health care applications as excuses to deny care. They call it cost cutting. At the least, rescission should be proscribed except in the case of true fraud, pre-existing conditions should not be a basis for denial of care, health care should be portable and those who can't afford it should be subsidized. I probably missed a thing or two but you get the point. If we get all that I would even be open to tort reform, though this is actually a canard, as long as the ceiling for awards was not set artificially low. I guess that's it.

[joerockhead]

ALL Politicians need to stop being greedy and power hungry and do what they vowed to do. These people need to stop taking big $$ from all the corrupt businesses and work to create some rules that will ensure Health Care is affordable to everyone.

Imagine if they passed a few laws that ensured that Big Insurance and Big Pharmaceuticals would have to work together and lower costs.

Imagine if they passed a few laws that did not have all kinds of shit wrapped in them and actually helped the country without spending all of our tax dollars.

Imagine if they created some laws and rules to ensure that Illegals could actually come in and become authorized visitors or legal citizens and then could PAY taxes!

Naw, that will never happen.

[ddoubleez]

A single-payer health care system saved my mom's life....

A single-payer health care system saved my wife's life....

All the countries with single-payer health care systems are ranked better than ours....

The single-payer system possibility has been eliminated by propaganda and people that will not research the rhetoric they are subjected to...........

[ddoubleez]

1) This shit won't fly.

2) Not enough money to go into it now what with all the other social & recovery programs Obama has already initiated.

3) Furthermore Obama is losing traction with his own base (no surprise there - Dems are notoriously wishy-washy) so I would not get too worked up over this issue.

4) If it goes through in any way shape or form, it will no doubt be watered down to a re-vamped Medicare or some such crap that only the indigent can take advantage of; certainly not a National Health Insurance plan for "all" people, as promised.

1) It has already been shot down...

2) We were already borrowing money for everything for the past 40 years.... So this goes with-out saying.... What you ment to say was, do not have the credit to borrow for this program, it will not pay for itself so it will not get the same consideration as a program that will convert resources into money for a corperation...

3) The few left that were still delusional after the last congressional election.... Nothing significant changed there, still in Iraq, still in afganistan, still have a currupt congress, still have lobbists in the administration, still burning coal, still being lied to.... BUT it is better than where would have been if the other half won, but that is no reason not to be dissatisfied...

4) No other option, it has already been defeated.... Just like it was in the 60's the 70's the 90's and now..... Just call something good, socialist and it will get shot down



The only thing that americans can recycle is rhetoric: YouTube - Ronald Reagan Speaks Out Against Socialized Medicine (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs)

[Juan.Camaney]

All the countries with single-payer health care systems are ranked better than ours....
Then why would so many people from all of these great countries flock to the US to receive health care?

[ddoubleez]

Then why would so many people from all of these great countries flock to the US to receive health care?

Like which ones?

Houston has M.D. Anderson Cancer that have a few people that go there, but the same can be said about folks going to canada or the EU for care.. Desperate people do illogical things....

The World Health Organization's ranking
of the world's health systems.



1 France <- Single-payer
2 Italy <- Single-payer
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain <- Single-payer
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan <- Single-payer
11 Norway <-single-payer
12 Portugal <-single-payer
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland <-single-payer
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom <- single payer
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia <-single-payer
27 United Arab Emirates <-single-payer
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada <-single-payer and the man that made it happen was voted the most important canadian!
31 Finland <-single-payer
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America <- The system many of you defend..
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
42 Bahrain
43 Croatia
44 Qatar
45 Kuwait
46 Barbados
47 Thailand
48 Czech Republic
49 Malaysia
50 Poland
51 Dominican Republic
52 Tunisia
53 Jamaica
54 Venezuela
55 Albania
56 Seychelles
57 Paraguay
58 South Korea
59 Senegal
60 Philippines
61 Mexico
62 Slovakia
63 Egypt
64 Kazakhstan
65 Uruguay
66 Hungary
67 Trinidad and Tobago
68 Saint Lucia
69 Belize
70 Turkey
71 Nicaragua
72 Belarus
73 Lithuania
74 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
75 Argentina
76 Sri Lanka
77 Estonia
78 Guatemala
79 Ukraine
80 Solomon Islands
81 Algeria
82 Palau
83 Jordan
84 Mauritius
85 Grenada
86 Antigua and Barbuda
87 Libya
88 Bangladesh
89 Macedonia
90 Bosnia-Herzegovina
91 Lebanon
92 Indonesia
93 Iran
94 Bahamas
95 Panama
96 Fiji
97 Benin
98 Nauru
99 Romania
100 Saint Kitts and Nevis
101 Moldova
102 Bulgaria
103 Iraq
104 Armenia
105 Latvia
106 Yugoslavia
107 Cook Islands
108 Syria
109 Azerbaijan
110 Suriname
111 Ecuador
112 India
113 Cape Verde
114 Georgia
115 El Salvador
116 Tonga
117 Uzbekistan
118 Comoros
119 Samoa
120 Yemen
121 Niue
122 Pakistan
123 Micronesia
124 Bhutan
125 Brazil
126 Bolivia
127 Vanuatu
128 Guyana
129 Peru
130 Russia
131 Honduras
132 Burkina Faso
133 Sao Tome and Principe
134 Sudan
135 Ghana
136 Tuvalu
137 Ivory Coast
138 Haiti
139 Gabon
140 Kenya
141 Marshall Islands
142 Kiribati
143 Burundi
144 China
145 Mongolia
146 Gambia
147 Maldives
148 Papua New Guinea
149 Uganda
150 Nepal
151 Kyrgystan
152 Togo
153 Turkmenistan
154 Tajikistan
155 Zimbabwe
156 Tanzania
157 Djibouti
158 Eritrea
159 Madagascar
160 Vietnam
161 Guinea
162 Mauritania
163 Mali
164 Cameroon
165 Laos
166 Congo
167 North Korea
168 Namibia
169 Botswana
170 Niger
171 Equatorial Guinea
172 Rwanda
173 Afghanistan
174 Cambodia
175 South Africa
176 Guinea-Bissau
177 Swaziland
178 Chad
179 Somalia
180 Ethiopia
181 Angola
182 Zambia
183 Lesotho
184 Mozambique
185 Malawi
186 Liberia
187 Nigeria
188 Democratic Republic of the Congo
189 Central African Republic
190 Myanmar

[ravenshrike]

There's a reason that Samuel Clemens considered statistics to be utter bunkum.

The "indicators" used by the WHO for the report, last published in 2000, making it woefully out of date are overall level of population health; health inequalities (or disparities) within the population; overall level of health system responsiveness (a combination of patient satisfaction and how well the system acts); distribution of responsiveness within the population (how well people of varying economic status find that they are served by the health system); and the distribution of the health system’s financial burden within the population (who pays the costs)

Of those, the last being an entirely monetary issue with no impact on the system itself thus has no actual reflection on the health care system. Instead, it is an economic issue and thus cannot truly be used to rank how good a health system is. So, removing that ranking most definitely knocks France, the country that let a shitload of old people die, off the top and bumps the US up quite a few places, probably into the top ten. Rankings three and four are entirely subjective and therefore shaped by one's culture, ergo, they are about as reliable indicators of health care systems as Janeane Garofalo is of funny comedians. At this point, if you were to re-rank the countries the US would definitely be in the top three, and more probably first.

[ddoubleez]

There's a reason that Samuel Clemens considered statistics to be utter bunkum.

The "indicators" used by the WHO for the report, last published in 2000, making it woefully out of date are

Of those, the last being an entirely monetary issue with no impact on the system itself thus has no actual reflection on the health care system. Instead, it is an economic issue and thus cannot truly be used to rank how good a health system is. So, removing that ranking most definitely knocks France, the country that let a shitload of old people die, off the top and bumps the US up quite a few places, probably into the top ten. Rankings three and four are entirely subjective and therefore shaped by one's culture, ergo, they are about as reliable indicators of health care systems as Janeane Garofalo is of funny comedians. At this point, if you were to re-rank the countries the US would definitely be in the top three, and more probably first.


If france is allowing people to die-off at a rate greater than our private health insurers, one would need to ask why their mortality rates spank most countries including ours..

Mortality rate in the US:

Infant Mortality Rate: 6.26 deaths/1,000 live births (2009 est.)
Life Expectancy: 78.11 years (2009 est.)
Median Age: 36.7 years

Mortality rate in France:

Infant Mortality Rate: 3.33 deaths/1,000 live births (2009 est.)
Life Expectancy: 80.98 years (2009 est.)
Median Age: 39.4 years

Moratlity rate in Japan (single-payer healthcare):

Infant Mortality Rate: 2.79 deaths/1,000 live births (2009 est.)
Life Expectancy: 82.12 years (2009 est.)
Median Age: 44.2 years

Mortality rate in UK (single-payer healthcare):

Infant Mortality Rate: 4.85 deaths/1,000 live births (2009 est.)
Life Expectancy: 79.01 years (2009 est.)
Median Age: 40.2 years

Mortality rate in Italy (single-payer):

Infant Mortality Rate: 5.51 deaths/1,000 live births (2009 est.)
Life Expectancy: 80.2 years (2009 est.)
Median Age: 43.3 years

Mortality rate in Spain (single-payer):

Infant Mortality Rate: 4.21 deaths/1,000 live births (2009 est.)
Life Expectancy: 80.05 years (2009 est.)
Median Age: 41.1 years



And I can make this list as long as you like.

It should also be understood, that we are devoting almost twice the GDP towards healthcare than all the above listed countries, which is to say we are getting fewer results and spending more money. Also none of these countries have health care expendatures increasing at a greater rate than their economy, we are the only one. We are also the only country listed that have fewer and fewer insured every year.

[joerockhead]

Here is a View of ABC - No, not FOX News, but ABC. Someone else?? NO.

q9GMKK_fWKg

Also, the countries that have the Single Payer system of Health care also have a 60% PLUS Tax system, Check that out!!!

[Krasch]

Doubleez you can quote whatever stats you like, but when Canadian doctors, who can afford to pay, need medical care, they go the States to get stuff done.

Despite what innovation we have in Canada, which is considerable, when push goes to shove they head south of our border. Proof's in the pudding, 'nuff said.

[joerockhead]

Doubleez you can quote whatever stats you like, but when Canadian doctors, who can afford to pay, need medical care, they go the States to get stuff done.

Despite what innovation we have in Canada, which is considerable, when push goes to shove they head south of our border. Proof's in the pudding, 'nuff said.

And Pudding is all the old people get to eat under Socialized health care!

[Krasch]

And Pudding is all the old people get to eat under Socialized health care!

You'd think so, but you'd be wrong.

Until my grandmother passed away a month ago, she was in a nursing home for five years, and we actually ate with her from time to time (for a nominal fee).

They had a wide variety of meals, none of whch could be construed as any kind of pudding unless their specific medical needs required. The only real difference was IMHO the relative lack of spices in the food but that's understandable.

Her sister still lives on her own and eats whatever she wants.

[ravenshrike]

And I can make this list as long as you like.


Do you really, really want me to spank you on this issue? Given our higher homicide and accident rates(There aren't that many french skydivers/spelunkers/hikers/rock climbers etc... As well we have much less public transportation) along with wildly differing definitions of infant mortality means that when you normalize for those factors, not only are we the longest living first world nation, but we have the best infant mortality rate.

[dan18apple]

You are so wrong. Costs will NOT go down!!! Hell, the Government cannot even run the Postal service nor AmTrak without paying way too much money!!
And both are broke!!

The biggest issue with health care is three Items -

1 - Doctor's having to pay ridiculous rates for insurance due to BS lawsuits
2 - People Refusing to get regular check ups, because even if they have insurance, they still have to pay out of pocket.
3 - Uninsured people and illegals - Our system would help a large portion of this, but my rates will not go down and I will have to wait longer for a checkup.

Here are a couple of not talked about points -

If the so called 50 Million people suddenly got health care, where are the extra doctors, nurses and hospitals coming from? If you have to wait 3-4 weeks for an appointment now, you will have to wait 3-4 Months.

The Government has not even gotten Cash For Clunkers working right!!!:usuck:

The Whole thing will not start until 2013, and it will be so fucked up with changes, that we all will be paying!!!!

And imagine how big our deficit will be by then!!! :jimi:

amazing this response to my remarks is typical of whats wrong about American attitudes to public funding in society. Disease and epidemic does not respect social boundaries, if don't provide universal health care to those less fortunate in your society the poor health problems will spread from the poor to those wealthy in society. The medical prevention term for this is "looking after the herd". There are somethings that a society has to bear the cost, even if it loss making money wise. It is a question of the benefits outweighing the costs to society.

[joerockhead]

DanApple -

See now you are trying to make this something else.

I did NOT say that the poor should not get health care.
Did I?

I said the Government should NOT be running this. I gave examples of why, and you refused to see that. That is facts of the US Governmnet!

I have already said we nee to change the health care system, so the poor can get it.

Oh, and in case you did not know, if you are poor and have no health care, you go to the Emergency room. They will not refuse you. Now that is.

So now go re read it all, then maybe you will understand what I was saying.

NO GOVERNMENT CONTROL!!!!!