Should Marijuana be legalized?

[phunlee]

I'm not a pot smoker, I don't smoke or rarely drink, but I have no problem if others choose to do those things. As a libertarian I believe in freedom of individual choice, so long as it is not harming others.

I remember studying in college about newspaper publisher William Randolph Hearst, who had large interest in lumber, forest operations and paper mills, saw hemp as a threat to his business, so he lobbied for the Marijuana Tax Act of 1937. He printed in lies in his paper to say public opinion.

Much like the prohibition on alcohol, it has failed with drugs as well. It is costly and ineffective.

I'm not saying that using drugs like marijuana is good thing. Tobacco and alcohol are bad in their common uses, but they are legal.

Like to know everyone's thoughts on the matter.

It’s All Politics Blog Archive Rob Kampia of Marijuana Policy Project on Glenn Beck (http://politics.blogsubstation.com/rob-kampia-of-marijuana-policy-project-on-glenn-beck)

[Krasch]

I'm not a pot smoker, I don't smoke or rarely drink, but I have no problem if others choose to do those things. As a libertarian I believe in freedom of individual choice, so long as it is not harming others.

I remember studying in college about newspaper publisher William Randolph Hearst, who had large interest in lumber, forest operations and paper mills, saw hemp as a threat to his business, so he lobbied for the Marijuana Tax Act of 1937. He printed in lies in his paper to say public opinion.

Much like the prohibition on alcohol, it has failed with drugs as well. It is costly and ineffective.

I'm not saying that using drugs like marijuana is good thing. Tobacco and alcohol are bad in their common uses, but they are legal.

Like to know everyone's thoughts on the matter.

It’s All Politics Blog Archive Rob Kampia of Marijuana Policy Project on Glenn Beck (http://politics.blogsubstation.com/rob-kampia-of-marijuana-policy-project-on-glenn-beck)

I'm not at all in favour of drug use, but legalizing it COULD be a good thing.

In Ontario we have governmentally run beer and liquor stores, which are the only place in this province you can legally buy booze (not counting restaurants, bars and the like). It's not like some places where you can pick it up in any 7-11.

Making drugs available through such a venue would allow the government to ensure proper quality product by holding it to rigourous standards and help control who has access to it. Plus it'd take away a lot of the profit from pushers and dealers.

[shiiboi]

In my opinion, anti- recreational drug laws are unecessary, inconsistent, and unenforcable. The only reason drugs remain illegal is because too many powerful people make mega-bucks off their illegality.

[ryster]

Marijuana should, without question, be legalized.

(Personally I think the drinking age should be 18, but thats a different topic) It should be available at the same age as alcohol, in it's extreme, THC's effects are closer to booze than tobacco.

It would open a giant industry for public profit, and generate government revenue through taxes. It would just about entirely shut down marijuana trafficking in the US, and would thus save lives and money. It would also provide an alternative to drug dealers, which in turn would keep many pot smokers from exposure to harder drugs such as cocaine or heroine. And finally, there is no effect of marijuana that justifies it's illegality...

[Krasch]

Marijuana should, without question, be legalized.

(Personally I think the drinking age should be 18, but thats a different topic) It should be available at the same age as alcohol, in it's extreme, THC's effects are closer to booze than tobacco.

It would open a giant industry for public profit, and generate government revenue through taxes. It would just about entirely shut down marijuana trafficking in the US, and would thus save lives and money. It would also provide an alternative to drug dealers, which in turn would keep many pot smokers from exposure to harder drugs such as cocaine or heroine. And finally, there is no effect of marijuana that justifies it's illegality...

Yeah our drinking age in Ontario is 19, better than 21 for sure. And definitely it would be a tax winfall.

Hell I'd like to se the stuff GROWN by the government if they're going to legalize it. We have people licenced to grow it here for medicinal purposes in Ontario, with NO health or safety inspections of the premises, nor monitoring to ensure they're not growing excess for "other" purposes. One place managed to get nabbed for growing over 10 plants instead of the allowable 25, and we won't even mention half the grow-ops are firetraps and mould factories.

[dionysus]

Of course it should be legalized. I think here in Britain theres only ever been 1 associated death from it.. (some guy choked on his own vomit or summit) but, look at the death tally from Alcohol and Tobacco ?? Tens of thousands every year. Im sure in America its lots more. And putting someone in prison for possession is ridiculous. Its obvious its an enemy to Capitalism, thats why its illegal.

[fmb]

Of course it should be legalized. I think here in Britain theres only ever been 1 associated death from it.. (some guy choked on his own vomit or summit) but, look at the death tally from Alcohol and Tobacco ??

Ummm... Can you say "cancer"? Cancer will still occur if you smoke pot.

Anyway, I don't see a need to continue with not allowing anyone to smoke some weed. I've never done any illegal drugs; I don't understand why pot is still illegal.

[tmcsaint72]

marijuana should definatly be legal. As has been mentioned already there is no study that justifies the fact that it is not. For a person to overdose on pot they would have to smoke over 2 pounds in around a two hour period (you would fall asleep way before that). Not to mention the money that it would bring into america. on the show Marijuana Inc. which i believe was on MSNBC one guy in oakland california, that owned a legal head shop which supplied those with medical use cards, payed over 300,000 dollars in taxes to the state and almost 700,000 to the nation. i say the legalization would help pull a struggling economy up out of the gutter

[schutzenkonig]

Hmm...no one to debate against, we're all in agreement. Even though I don't indulge in drugs.

[mstad]

Absolutely. Legalize it, and tax the fuck out of it. Let the government make some money off of it instead of wasting money on our bullshit "war on drugs" lumping weed in with all the other drugs.

[dionysus]

Ummm... Can you say "cancer"? Cancer will still occur if you smoke pot.

Anyway, I don't see a need to continue with not allowing anyone to smoke some weed. I've never done any illegal drugs; I don't understand why pot is still illegal.


Ive never heard of any link between Marijuana and Cancer.. unless of course its mixed and smoked with Tobacco.. which we all know isnt necessary.

[Krasch]

Ive never heard of any link between Marijuana and Cancer.. unless of course its mixed and smoked with Tobacco.. which we all know isnt necessary.

I've read that tobacco smoke is mildly radioactive (Alpha type to be specific) which is why it triggers cancer when inhaled. You're basically directly iradiating your lungs after all.

I had NOT heard the same about pot.

That being said, I would not in any way be surprised if it did given all the funky compounds that are in a Marijuana plant, much as there are in tobacco albeit different compounds. Perhaps it's an aspect that just hasn't been studied enough?

[LurkerPatrol]

I've smoked weed 3 times. I never found it to be too bad except for when I was recovering from a bad cough and my lungs were somewhat weak.

I don't really believe in doing drugs but when my friends offered it at their place I couldn't really say no. Besides I wanted to try it out. From what I see, it has no real adverse effects if just done casually. It's like drinking. If you drink too much too often you'll fuck yourself up mentally and physically. Same with MJ.

Therefore I think it should be legalized but somewhat controlled in it's sales (aka restricted to weed bars/age restrictions).

[shiiboi]

Hell I'd like to se the stuff GROWN by the government if they're going to legalize it. We have people licenced to grow it here for medicinal purposes in Ontario, with NO health or safety inspections of the premises, nor monitoring to ensure they're not growing excess for "other" purposes. One place managed to get nabbed for growing over 10 plants instead of the allowable 25, and we won't even mention half the grow-ops are firetraps and mould factories.
Last night there was a report on CNN claiming that 80% of the pot grown for the north american market is now grown in US National parks! The US gov't simultaneously raised the funding for security at the US / Mexican border and cut the funding for National Park and Forestry service lands leading the Mexican cartels to move their operations out of Mexico and into the US.

[Juan.Camaney]

A lot of misconecptions around here.

Tobacco and alcohol are not bad. Abuse of either one is bad. Abuse of anything is bad, hence the term abuse. Cancer does not occur with marijuana as marijuana can be ingested by more means than simply smoking it.

Chemical depedency is very prevalent in any type of drugs, foods etc. The government allows companies to put a certain number of additives that make foods and drugs dangerous (high fructose corn syrup, margarine being one chemical bond away from being a plastic, etc).

Marijuana is illegal in most places for political reasons. Its nutritional and industrial uses dwarf most common plants that are used. It would hurt a lot of other economies, economies that donate money to people who keep it illegal. Medicianal marijuana is also a problem. Its too easy to get a card from a doctor and dispensaries around here in CA are allowed to set up in places where liquor stores aren't allowed and its urging unaccepting communities to retaliate against them. The whole taxing the shit out of it...its too easy to set up a grow operation, and if it was legalized, I know I wouldn't be buying my junk from Uncle Sam...I'd be growing my own strains. The government (again) likes to add too many things to drugs and foods and would probably limit it's potency like they do alcohol. I don't know about you guys, but taking a 100% pure cask strength whiskey over the watered down BS they sell at a liquor store is more enjoyable to me.

I kind of like the status quo. I think Marijuana should be lowered to a lower class drug but not legalized. People smoke pretty much anywhere anyway. DWI laws still apply and drug cartels aren't dealing much in herb anyway, so all it would do is add government interference and I think we all agree that is a bad thing. Besides, those assholes are busy trying to get you hooked on their own drugs anyway. Some dude with a degree from a school can mess with morphine, enrichen it and get people a legal high, but let some dude with knowlege of plants from years of experience try and get you high and its illegal? Hypocritical, yes. But what would the price of weed be if it had to go through FDA and the manufacturing process and testing and quality control and....

[Krasch]

Last night there was a report on CNN claiming that 80% of the pot grown for the north american market is now grown in US National parks! The US gov't simultaneously raised the funding for security at the US / Mexican border and cut the funding for National Park and Forestry service lands leading the Mexican cartels to move their operations out of Mexico and into the US.

I just realized my keyboard created a typo on that post you quoted. Our government allows licenced growers to produce 25 plants at a time for medicinal purposes. The place that got nabbed was doing over 100 not 10. (Damn keyboard skips repeated keys sometimes) So the other 75 plants were being grown for the black market. I forget exactly why they were nabbed, but I think it was calls to the police by neighbors or such. In Ontario there are no government inspections of these places despite the fact they're ostensibly growing the stuff for government approved purposes.

On the other hand, you can bet a privately owned brewry even a micro-brewry will get regular inspections for health and safety to ensure we're not getting "Red Tick Beer" like in the Simpsons gag.

[shiiboi]

The whole taxing the shit out of it...its too easy to set up a grow operation, and if it was legalized, I know I wouldn't be buying my junk from Uncle Sam...I'd be growing my own strains. The government (again) likes to add too many things to drugs and foods and would probably limit it's potency like they do alcohol. I don't know about you guys, but taking a 100% pure cask strength whiskey over the watered down BS they sell at a liquor store is more enjoyable to me.
I like to grow my own tomatoes, they taste fresh and it's a fun hobby. But most people go for convenience and buy their tomates from the supermarket. The same is true of brewing beer/distilling spirits. The same would be true of legal marijuana.

But what would the price of weed be if it had to go through FDA and the manufacturing process and testing and quality control and....
The law of supply / demand would prevail. In a 'good' growing year, pot would be cheap and easy to come by. If the weather didn't cooperate, the prices would go up. But the sheer volume involved would drive the prices down much lower than they are now through the black market.

Even though I haven't smoked in probably 20 years, I resent the hypocracy involved in the 'war on drugs.' Especially now that we have a president and much of congress from the 'smokers' generation. Decriminalization is not good enough. That's been tried in many states during the past 2 decades, but everytime a new mayor or governor wants to make the crime statistics look better in an election year, they go after pot smokers to boost the arrest statistics. It needs to be legal or illegal, the 'decriminalization' limbo doesn't work.

[Juan.Camaney]

I like to grow my own tomatoes, they taste fresh and it's a fun hobby. But most people go for convenience and buy their tomates from the supermarket. The same is true of brewing beer/distilling spirits. The same would be true of legal marijuana.
Kind of, but growing weed is just soooo easy and the harvest lasts a lot longer than a few tomatoes. I can set up a small grow op and harvest maybe a lbs of good herbs from a high grade clone in a relatively short cycle. A lbs for me would last a year almost (I smoke a 1/4 every two weeks, 4 of those in a month makes an oz and 16 oz in a lbs goes longer than a year). Whereas you grow your tomaters and have to eat them quickly.

The law of supply / demand would prevail. In a 'good' growing year, pot would be cheap and easy to come by. If the weather didn't cooperate, the prices would go up. But the sheer volume involved would drive the prices down much lower than they are now through the black market.
I think you are a little ignorant of the grow ops that yield that type of mj people are going for these days. Weather doesn't matter. I think you are also a little ignorant of how the FDA goes about testing its drugs/foods. There is a reason designer drugs cost so much. You are right though, I mean BC bud is so cheap because of the abundance and any canadian will tell you that weed in USA is so over priced. I still don't trust my government enough to buy drugs accepted by them though. Fuck them. I've been researching grow ops for a long long time and am pretty confident as soon as I get a safe place I will be tinkering with my own strains. If they ever do legalize weed, I won't go to the store and buy their crap. In the same fashion I wont buy budweiser if I can afford a good microbrew.

[BackdoorJesus]

I like to grow my own tomatoes, they taste fresh and it's a fun hobby. But most people go for convenience and buy their tomates from the supermarket. The same is true of brewing beer/distilling spirits. The same would be true of legal marijuana.

Kind of, but growing weed is just soooo easy and the harvest lasts a lot longer than a few tomatoes. I can set up a small grow op and harvest maybe a lbs of good herbs from a high grade clone in a relatively short cycle. A lbs for me would last a year almost (I smoke a 1/4 every two weeks, 4 of those in a month makes an oz and 16 oz in a lbs goes longer than a year). Whereas you grow your tomaters and have to eat them quickly.

I've been researching grow ops for a long long time and am pretty confident as soon as I get a safe place I will be tinkering with my own strains. If they ever do legalize weed, I won't go to the store and buy their crap. In the same fashion I wont buy budweiser if I can afford a good microbrew.

Nah I think grow ops, at least as an industry, will go the way of moonshiners if the weed is legalized; I have to say I'm more on the same page as shiiboi is on this one.

Too many people opt for convenience over cost, especially when they don't have to dodge the law to do it...I know I would. You think growing it is easy? Well more power to you man - I wouldn't grow my own in a legalized scenario any more than I would distill my own whiskey or fix my own transmission. I pay people for that shit.

Taxes on alcohol currently can run 2-3 times or more the cost of the alcohol itself, be it beer or distilled spirits...yet more often folks still buy it in stores rather than from moonshiners. I have no reason to believe that weed would be any different.

[Juan.Camaney]

Nah I think grow ops, at least as an industry, will go the way of moonshiners if the weed is legalized; I have to say I'm more on the same page as shiiboi is on this one.

Too many people opt for convenience over cost, especially when they don't have to dodge the law to do it...I know I would. You think growing it is easy? Well more power to you man - I wouldn't grow my own in a legalized scenario any more than I would distill my own whiskey or fix my own transmission. I pay people for that shit.

Taxes on alcohol currently can run 2-3 times or more the cost of the alcohol itself, be it beer or distilled spirits...yet more often folks still buy it in stores rather than from moonshiners. I have no reason to believe that weed would be any different.

Depends which kind of grow ops I guess; if your op is for bulk brick packed crap versus high grade buds. I get where you guys are going with the convenience over quality...guess I'm a snob when I choose quality over quantity.

[shiiboi]

I think you are a little ignorant of the grow ops that yield that type of mj people are going for these days. Weather doesn't matter. I think you are also a little ignorant of how the FDA goes about testing its drugs/foods. There is a reason designer drugs cost so much.

Hydroponics, high-potency chemical fertilizers, pruning techniques, etc. are a response to MJ's illegal status-- the necessity to derive maximum profit from minimum product. As a legal product, we would expect to see MJ farmed the way tobacco is grown. Commercial farming doesn't care about individual plants, volume makes up for that.

It also would NOT be subject to FDA approval. Only drugs which are marketed as treating or preventing disease need FDA approval. Farm products are overseen by the USDA which is in the business of PROMOTING the sale of farm products. They respond only to complaints.

[Freemason]

Of course it should be. The problem with the taxing issue will be with those who grow there own, but there are those who make their own wine and beer and nothing seems to hurting taxes in this area.

For those who grow their own they will provide their vendors with an increase of cash, employees, so everyone wins if you will.

I say let it grow.

[Juan.Camaney]

Hydroponics, high-potency chemical fertilizers, pruning techniques, etc. are a response to MJ's illegal status-- the necessity to derive maximum profit from minimum product. As a legal product, we would expect to see MJ farmed the way tobacco is grown. Commercial farming doesn't care about individual plants, volume makes up for that.
Yeah...no. A connosieur would still prefer the high grade over the brick packed. Look its not secret here that say BDJ and I smoke, or at least have smoked all our lives. He has this saying where he says "I'd rather get as high as I want, rather than as high as I can" whereas, I'd rather smoke some good strain hydro, get nice and toasted and smoke less. Its akin to the difference between drinking beer all day and sipping a snifter of fine brandy or a tumbler of good scotch. Again, it has to do with your consumption...do you consume just regular stuff or do you seek out the fine buds. In other words, stress versus a nice Super OG Kush.

[BackdoorJesus]

The glaringly flawed assumption in your argument, juan, is that if pot is legalized, all of a sudden the only thing available will be dirt weed.

Now, to use your own example, if the difference to you is equivalent to the difference of drinking beer all day or sipping a snifter of brandy, that's all well and good, but I have to ask, can you not legally purchase both that beer as well as that fine brandy? Of course you can.

If you go to a liquor store are the only things on the shelf Bud Light and Thunderbird? Certainly not.

Should weed be legalized, there would certainly be a market for (and therefore a supply of) high-end bud as well as mass-produced bud. And even at the low end - do you really think that there will even be something identified as "brick packed" when there will be no need to smuggle and therefore no need to pack shit in spare tires or whatnot to move it over the border? You need to change your thinking around from looking at it as an illegal substance to looking at it as a legal one if you want to explore the potential in this market.

The idea of personally growing the shit, when I can buy it at any liquor store (or smoke shop or whatever) in variant strains and degrees of potency, seems like a big waste of time & energy if I have the money to buy it. Hell, even now, most people buy the shit rather than grow it themselves, except they have to go to "a guy" or have a friend with "the card" so they can get it at a dispensary. In this respect, all that legalizing it does it free up the places you can get it.

So if the substance is legalized, the govt makes tax money off it just like they do off of alcohol & tobacco. Big deal. People will buy the good, people will buy the bad, and the tax revenue base is increased without raising taxes elsewhere. Win-win. Connoisseurs as well as plebeians would both have a legally produced product at the price point they desire.

And hey, if there are still hobbyists out there that want to continue to cultivate & grow their own, more power to them, but as an industry home grow ops would go the way of moonshiners after prohibition was repealed.

[Juan.Camaney]

The glaringly flawed assumption in your argument, juan, is that if pot is legalized, all of a sudden the only thing available will be dirt weed.
All depends on the conditions of the legalization. Even with tobacco and alcohol, from state to state, laws vary. A pack of cigs in NY have to be fire proof and cost upwards of 6 bucks a pack. Why? Because of government intervention. Tobbacco has their money in a lot of politicians pockets and who is to say that they wont try (like they have been for years) to fuck with a competing product and force the same rules and regulations.

Now, to use your own example, if the difference to you is equivalent to the difference of drinking beer all day or sipping a snifter of brandy, that's all well and good, but I have to ask, can you not legally purchase both that beer as well as that fine brandy? Of course you can.
Yeah, you can purchase both of those but it gets harder and harder to get a special reserve extra aged fine cognac and guess what happens to its price :)

If you go to a liquor store are the only things on the shelf Bud Light and Thunderbird? Certainly not.
Come to the hood and ask that question. I have to drive quite a ways to get some decent hooch. But thats besides the point.

Should weed be legalized, there would certainly be a market for (and therefore a supply of) high-end bud as well as mass-produced bud. And even at the low end - do you really think that there will even be something identified as "brick packed" when there will be no need to smuggle and therefore no need to pack shit in spare tires or whatnot to move it over the border? You need to change your thinking around from looking at it as an illegal substance to looking at it as a legal one if you want to explore the potential in this market.
Brick packed is a lose term used around the weed culture, you know that. Similar terms are stress, ditch weed, etc etc. How much does budweiser sell versus a very fine small micro brew and how many of those fine brewers get tossed by the weigh side simply because of market saturation. It is my assumption that if weed is legalized, growers will flood the market with lower grade bullshit that I refuse to smoke any more (unless its free :coold: ) and small home grow ops with strains rarer than the sasquatch himself will be made illegal much in the way moonshining is now illegal. The gorvernment is not stupid, they will cut cost, throw products into testing to ensure quality, a wide variety of additives will be added to MJ and they will just find a way to fuck it up for us people.

The idea of personally growing the shit, when I can buy it at any liquor store (or smoke shop or whatever) in variant strains and degrees of potency, seems like a big waste of time & energy if I have the money to buy it. Hell, even now, most people buy the shit rather than grow it themselves, except they have to go to "a guy" or have a friend with "the card" so they can get it at a dispensary. In this respect, all that legalizing it does it free up the places you can get it.
Now you are assuming it will be available in a wide variety and degrees of potency. I mean, seriously speaking, can you go to any market right now and get a 50 cent swisher sweet in the same store that sells 100 dollar churchills from Cuba? No. Its a waste of time and energy for the normal consumer, but as with most things, I am a brand whore and seek to own/consume the finest. I'm not against legalization, I'm against government intervention and I am fairly certain the culture will become fucked up once the government has a say so in when where how and who you can buy it from, what gets added to it, etc.

So if the substance is legalized, the govt makes tax money off it just like they do off of alcohol & tobacco. Big deal. People will buy the good, people will buy the bad, and the tax revenue base is increased without raising taxes elsewhere. Win-win. Connoisseurs as well as plebeians would both have a legally produced product at the price point they desire.
sir, if it were that easy, we'd all be sitting around enjoying a toke every night.


And hey, if there are still hobbyists out there that want to continue to cultivate & grow their own, more power to them, but as an industry home grow ops would go the way of moonshiners after prohibition was repealed.
Thats exactly what I am against. Its what happened to america and what ruined trades. Walmart sells bullshit, everyone buys their bullshit, and small shops who sold quality goods became extinct. Home depot starts sellign BS and those who created quality crafts got pushed off into oblivion. You all might like the walmart stuff, I prefer Nordstroms? :hay:

[shiiboi]

Again, it has to do with your consumption...do you consume just regular stuff or do you seek out the fine buds. In other words, stress versus a nice Super OG Kush.

Well, back when I smoked regularly, there were very few premium strains. It was a matter of how much was in a nickel bag and how long would it last. But during the Carter administration there was a debate at the federal level about legalization*, and the big tobacco and food corporations promptly went out and trademarked the well-known strains. No doubt many of your favorites would would still be available, but 'owned' by Unilever or Philip Morris.

Perhaps you can educate me about the new 'finer' strains via a care package sent fedex?

*Of course when Reagan was elected, legalization went out the window and we got the 'war on drugs,' which many people believed was created by the defense contractor lobby to make certain that the US government would keep buying their aircraft and weapons now that the cold war was over.

[Juan.Camaney]

Perhaps you can educate me about the new 'finer' strains via a care package sent fedex?
Make it out to CA, man. No such thing as a stingy stoner. Today I score a nice big bag of sunkist and some super og kush. All pretty normal high grade stuff, nothing too rare. That is special ocasions only :juan:

[BackdoorJesus]

All depends on the conditions of the legalization. Even with tobacco and alcohol, from state to state, laws vary. A pack of cigs in NY have to be fire proof and cost upwards of 6 bucks a pack. Why? Because of government intervention. Tobbacco has their money in a lot of politicians pockets and who is to say that they wont try (like they have been for years) to fuck with a competing product and force the same rules and regulations.Cigarettes would cost a shitload more than six bucks a pack if they were illegal, no matter what state you live in.

Yeah, you can purchase both of those but it gets harder and harder to get a special reserve extra aged fine cognac and guess what happens to its price :)So by keeping it illegal it's easier to find? And cheaper even? Nigga please. Give ME a hit of that shit you're smoking...

Brick packed is a lose term used around the weed culture, you know that.
...
It is my assumption that if weed is legalized, growers will flood the market with lower grade bullshit that I refuse to smoke any more (unless its free :coold: ) and small home grow ops with strains rarer than the sasquatch himself will be made illegal much in the way moonshining is now illegal.Kinda like it is ALL illegal now?

The gorvernment is not stupid, they will cut cost, throw products into testing to ensure quality, a wide variety of additives will be added to MJ and they will just find a way to fuck it up for us people.I can't think of a much more fucked up thing to do to a person than to uproot their life by throwing them in jail.

Now you are assuming it will be available in a wide variety and degrees of potency.Uh...yes, I am - that is what legalization implies - why would I not make that assumption?.

I mean, seriously speaking, can you go to any market right now and get a 50 cent swisher sweet in the same store that sells 100 dollar churchills from Cuba? No.Mainly because Cuban cigars are illegal in this country. And if they weren't and I could buy them somewhere, I have a car - I can get to the store.

Its a waste of time and energy for the normal consumer, but as with most things, I am a brand whore and seek to own/consume the finest. I'm not against legalization, I'm against government intervention and I am fairly certain the culture will become fucked up once the government has a say so in when where how and who you can buy it from, what gets added to it, etc.Right now, the government DOES have a say so in when where how and who you can buy it from. You can't. And if you do, and get caught, well in many cases your ass is thrown in jail. THAT is government intervention, my friend.

Thats exactly what I am against. Its what happened to america and what ruined trades. Walmart sells bullshit, everyone buys their bullshit, and small shops who sold quality goods became extinct. Home depot starts sellign BS and those who created quality crafts got pushed off into oblivion. You all might like the walmart stuff, I prefer Nordstroms? :hay:Then go to freaking Nordstrom's! That is the point I have been trying to make from the beginning! Just because Walmart sells "bullshit" that is beneath you, does not mean that a better store, that sells items at level of quality which is up to your exacting standards, cannot exist.

Honestly the only reasons that I can see that anyone who is a smoker themselves would really want this to stay illegal would be that either they love the drama & adventure of dodging the law, or they have other fiscal interests that would be compromised by their illegal market becoming a legal one.

[Juan.Camaney]

Cigarettes would cost a shitload more than six bucks a pack if they were illegal, no matter what state you live in.
Only because tobbacco is hard to grow.

So by keeping it illegal it's easier to find? And cheaper even? Nigga please. Give ME a hit of that shit you're smoking...
You know the way to my hood, biatch! I'm not gonna keep offering if you won't make the trip. And yah, the cheap shit stays cheap, but the rare stuff would get rarer, that is my assumption.

Kinda like it is ALL illegal now?
I didn't follow that.

I can't think of a much more fucked up thing to do to a person than to uproot their life by throwing them in jail.
I can. Kill their market and putting them out of business all to allow a bunch of mass producers sell them under.

Uh...yes, I am - that is what legalization implies - why would I not make that assumption?.
Because you seem to think that the process to legalize makes it available which isnt the case. Guns are legal, that doesn't mean you can go buy a fully auto 50 cal. Its not as simple as most of you are assuming. Once you bring a product into market there are costs involved with production and development that get pushed onto the consumer. There are also licensing fees, advertising fees etc etc. Government would find a way to limit its consumption. Couple that with the politics behind alcohol and tobbacco now having a strong competitor. Then the community would be in uproar over the whole ordeal because yet another recreational drug is being brought to market to poison people. Lawyer fees....man if you guys are actually pro legalization, make it to some of the rallies and read up on the literature. I am very pro-marijuana....its obvious. But once you get behind all of the hurdles they would have to jump just to make it a stable market...man o man! I am not disagreeing with you all in that if they were to make it legal...like anyone can walk around anywhere, grow it, buy it at stores and tax it, and not have to deal with BS, fine! But you have to think a little deeper than that and realize that MJ has strong enemies all over the world because of politics involved and the huge transfer of wealth from one group to another.

Mainly because Cuban cigars are illegal in this country. And if they weren't and I could buy them somewhere, I have a car - I can get to the store.
:mags: just gotta know the right stores, homeboy. They aren't necessarily illegal, just like the herb.


Right now, the government DOES have a say so in when where how and who you can buy it from. You can't. And if you do, and get caught, well in many cases your ass is thrown in jail. THAT is government intervention, my friend.
Prohibition and government intervention are similar but different, but I see what you are saying. All they do right now is limit its uses to medicinal and keep track of who buys it. They dont regulate additives, taxes, etc. That is what I am against. Again, just to reiterate, if they said okay, its legal, and left it at that....I'm all for it!

Then go to freaking Nordstrom's! That is the point I have been trying to make from the beginning! Just because Walmart sells "bullshit" that is beneath you, does not mean that a better store, that sells items at level of quality which is up to your exacting standards, cannot exist.
What if the government said that all strains must contain a lower concentration of THC for the safety of the public? Then where do I go to get my high grade mind numbing herb? Grow my own? No, they made that illegal. Think PA and where they have to buy their booze from....state stores! FAIL!

Honestly the only reasons that I can see that anyone who is a smoker themselves would really want this to stay illegal would be that either they love the drama & adventure of dodging the law, or they have other fiscal interests that would be compromised by their illegal market becoming a legal one.
Attend a rally. Learn about the culture. I know you've been involved in stuff from our convos and times we've met. I don't like having to go through guys to get my crap. But that is exactly what would happen if it was legalized for recreational use. You wouldn't go through a guy, you'd go through "the man"

[fmb]

Its akin to the difference between drinking beer all day and sipping a snifter of fine brandy or a tumbler of good scotch. Again, it has to do with your consumption...do you consume just regular stuff or do you seek out the fine buds. In other words, stress versus a nice Super OG Kush.
I've got to agree with Juan on this one. I've never done an illegal drug, ever; however, if growing some weed was legal, I'd have some seriously high potent, kick ass, fmb, high styling, extremely high quality and low volume buds growing on my back porch. I take the same approach with my home brewed beers.


If you go to a liquor store are the only things on the shelf Bud Light and Thunderbird? Certainly not..
There are better things than BL and Tbird?

as an industry home grow ops would go the way of moonshiners after prohibition was repealed.
Blasphemer!!! Repent now! Moonshiners are alive and well. Here in my part of the country, the 'shiners and revenuers are still playing the same old games. Most home distillers here use old family recipes and are proud of the product they make. My family used to make and run shine; they probably still would do so, but my dad became a cop and that slowed things down some.

I can still get high grade products; if you make it over to the right coast, give me a couple hours notice and I'll have you a nice tumbler of 'shine waiting on you.

[macho biscuit]

i thought that is why we now have "medical" marijuana.

yes, it should be legal for everyone to enjoy. most people smoke, it might make you a tad dumber but you aren't killing any more brain cells than when you drink yourself retarded almost every night (which i do) and you don't see people who are high starting fights or beating their wives.

join NORML and get it legalized.

[connersdad19]

I agree with post number 31. Hell we tax cigarettes why not marijuana. lol.

[BackdoorJesus]

FYI shortly after this argument concluded in March, both Juan and myself got our doctor's recommendations to legally use cannabis.

Now, neither of us care about this issue so much - in that it IS legal for us - the principal debate he & I have now is only about where to get the best strains for the best prices.

And this is why this thread has been all but dead for the last four months :)

But any new input is always encouraged, so post away with your opinions folks!

[getbusywithit]

hell yeah!

[Juan.Camaney]

FYI shortly after this argument concluded in March, both Juan and myself got our doctor's recommendations to legally use cannabis.

Now, neither of us care about this issue so much - in that it IS legal for us - the principal debate he & I have now is only about where to get the best strains for the best prices.

And this is why this thread has been all but dead for the last four months :)

But any new input is always encouraged, so post away with your opinions folks!

:werd:

The only problem I see now is the government stepping in and taxing this to holy hell. They're talking about a $50 per oz tax. Black label (the strong stuff) cost about $480 an oz...$50 bucks is just insane.

Also, if they were to legalize recreational use, would we still keep the same strong strains available now, or will we get the "budweiser" stuff as compared to a premium beer? I got my card because it was getting harder to find the good strains and got stuck with lower grade stuff. I don't want companies like Marlboro stepping in and giving us ground up stems and seeds with a little additive to fake the effect stronger and put more crap in there to make Marijuana addictive.

Either way, its obvious the money wasted on trying to keep marijuana down is more and more prevalent every day.

[dan18apple]

Marijuana control is always a difficult subject to debate because so much bad stuff like tobbaco is available to the general public, and sometimes the only reason for banning marijuana is that it is not under government control and be taxable. Marijuana help people deal arthritis. If marijuana could help you help your grandma live a better life, with less hurt or stress would you ban it ?

[ddoubleez]

:werd:

The only problem I see now is the government stepping in and taxing this to holy hell. They're talking about a $50 per oz tax. Black label (the strong stuff) cost about $480 an oz...$50 bucks is just insane.

Also, if they were to legalize recreational use, would we still keep the same strong strains available now, or will we get the "budweiser" stuff as compared to a premium beer? I got my card because it was getting harder to find the good strains and got stuck with lower grade stuff. I don't want companies like Marlboro stepping in and giving us ground up stems and seeds with a little additive to fake the effect stronger and put more crap in there to make Marijuana addictive.

Either way, its obvious the money wasted on trying to keep marijuana down is more and more prevalent every day.

You pay more than 11% tax for many luxury items..... I would guess if I were a person that does this, the $50 would be a piece of mind on knowing what you just bought... That is the major argument for regulation...

The questions that should be asked in this thread are, 'Is it worth over a trillion every 10 years to lock up potheads?' 'How long can we do this?' 'Who is benifiting from the prohibition?"

[ddoubleez]

FYI shortly after this argument concluded in March, both Juan and myself got our doctor's recommendations to legally use cannabis.

Now, neither of us care about this issue so much - in that it IS legal for us - the principal debate he & I have now is only about where to get the best strains for the best prices.

And this is why this thread has been all but dead for the last four months :)

But any new input is always encouraged, so post away with your opinions folks!

YouTube - DEA raids medical marijuana collective, breaks Obama's promise (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_eoqV9UdwU&feature=PlayList&p=25B38C2918A91D6F&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=64)

[BackdoorJesus]

old news ddz, besides that happened right after Obama's laissez-faire DEA announcement so I expect the bust was in the works prior to the announcement.

besides the CA Gov't is starting to look too hard at the revenue potential of mmj in our state, and our state needs revenue desperately, so I expect things to get better here for stoners not worse.

[ddoubleez]

old news ddz, besides that happened right after Obama's laissez-faire DEA announcement so I expect the bust was in the works prior to the announcement.

besides the CA Gov't is starting to look too hard at the revenue potential of mmj in our state, and our state needs revenue desperately, so I expect things to get better here for stoners not worse.

The point I was making was the DEA does not care what your states laws are, or what the president thinks... They are running a business...

They have budgets and goals for arrests... The easiest arrests are the ones trying to do what they think is right... Pot busts are the easiest for these guys, because no one fights back, typically. If you were an agent, would you feel safer taking down a PCP operation or user, or a medical dispencary that you can case and plan out ahead of time. Their own agents have publically made this point.

People make money by putting pot heads in jail... Nearly 80% of drug busts are for weed.... Do you think that companies are going to allow that kind of revenue will go away...

Personally, I support the cause, because we simply can not afford to spend the money we have on prohibition, and we would be safer without it. Police would have more time to patrol and be seen, which reduces traditional crime.

[Juan.Camaney]

You pay more than 11% tax for many luxury items..... I would guess if I were a person that does this, the $50 would be a piece of mind on knowing what you just bought... That is the major argument for regulation...

The questions that should be asked in this thread are, 'Is it worth over a trillion every 10 years to lock up potheads?' 'How long can we do this?' 'Who is benifiting from the prohibition?"
My meds are not a luxury item.

[ddoubleez]

My meds are not a luxury item.

In a broken healthcare system, they are.....

I am also curious what you are treating, a very personal question, so I understand if you want to keep that private, but if you disclose it, others in your state with the same problem, maybe unaware of their option.

Regulation, cost money.... I am not saying all the 50 bucks is going to that, but you can not take an item from a black market and regulate it without it being a sink on state funding.... These operations will cost money if the state inspects them.

You should also understand that if it is successful, which it won't be, the price of the bag will drop more than the 50 dollars that is collected for taxes. Just consider yourself making a sacrifice to put the system in place.

[Juan.Camaney]

In a broken healthcare system, they are.....

I am also curious what you are treating, a very personal question, so I understand if you want to keep that private, but if you disclose it, others in your state with the same problem, maybe unaware of their option.

Regulation, cost money.... I am not saying all the 50 bucks is going to that, but you can not take an item from a black market and regulate it without it being a sink on state funding.... These operations will cost money if the state inspects them.

You should also understand that if it is successful, which it won't be, the price of the bag will drop more than the 50 dollars that is collected for taxes. Just consider yourself making a sacrifice to put the system in place.
Yeah well in my world, also known as the real world, where I work for my money and my employer provides health care, it is not a luxury item.

I use medical marijuana for my circular saw accident where doctors just wanted to perscribe meds I wasn't willing to take, also for insomnia because I don't want to end up like Heath, and recently for hypertension as my ace inhibitor isn't doing the job its supposed to do.

The rest of your diatribe...I get medical marijuana now which is regulated without a big ass tax. Don't ever defend the tax man. It goes against your views, remember. Why was it blasphemy to get taxed under Bush but now all of a sudden taxes are good?

[ddoubleez]

The rest of your diatribe...I get medical marijuana now which is regulated without a big ass tax. Don't ever defend the tax man. It goes against your views, remember. Why was it blasphemy to get taxed under Bush but now all of a sudden taxes are good?

Why is your insurance not paying for your sack in your world?

You may want to point out where I said taxes were bad...

I would have to point out that this would be a state tax, not a federal.

I have argued against increasing spending, while cutting taxes...

You may want to explain your free regulation..... And again, if this does work, which it won't the supplier will eventually take the 50 hit, if capitalism does what so many on this site says it does....

If you are intrested in pain relief, I suggest looking into your state flower. It is free, no taxes there for you.

And if you do not want to pay the tax, there is a way around that.

[BackdoorJesus]

wow deez chill the fuck out dude.

eat the elephant one bite at a time.

we've worked this long and hard to get it recognized as a legitimate medication in this state, we can work on the insurance companies in due time.

the point is the genie's out of the bottle, at least in CA, and nothing's going to put it back in there - plenty of govt rules and regulations and taxes are, I'm sure, going to follow, just give it time.

and as far as our state flower goes, well, the point of using MMJ is to avoid using often-prescribed opiates and you should know this so please don't be such a maroon.

[Juan.Camaney]

Why is your insurance not paying for your sack in your world?

You may want to point out where I said taxes were bad...

I would have to point out that this would be a state tax, not a federal.

I have argued against increasing spending, while cutting taxes...

You may want to explain your free regulation..... And again, if this does work, which it won't the supplier will eventually take the 50 hit, if capitalism does what so many on this site says it does....

If you are intrested in pain relief, I suggest looking into your state flower. It is free, no taxes there for you.

And if you do not want to pay the tax, there is a way around that.
My state flower is the Golden Popy, not the opium kind, genius. My job gives me cash in lieu for certain perscriptions that are not covered by the regular insurance so they really DO pay for my sack, and federal law still has marijuana as illegal, so no shit it would be a state tax.

[BackdoorJesus]

what I am telling you to chill out on is the "now now now" mentality that you seem to have.

We won't all get insurance coverage for medical marijuana, yet.

DEA arrests won't come to an abject halt, yet.

This substance is not legal in all states of the union or at the federal level, yet.

The point is, that the wheels are in motion and while there is still a lot of work to do a lot of work has already been done at the state and federal level, and the attitudes of an ever-increasing majority of the citizenry in this nation continue to change toward a more progressive attitude toward marijuana as a legitimate medicine as well as in general.

When I say "chill the fuck out" and "eat the elephant one bite at a time" I am saying that while there is still a lot of work to do, it has to be done calmly and in baby steps, but at the same time we should not ignore the enormous amount of progress already made to get us to this point.

Thing of this thread is, the debate is over, so Juan & I are at a loss as to why we're pursuing this circuitous conversation because materially we all seem to agree, however in methodology or urgency, we do not, apparently.

Regardless, the question at the top of the page is "Should Marijuana be legalized?" and I think we've all done an adequate job of affirming that it probably should be.

[BackdoorJesus]

And I'll tell you it is legal here because we voted for it to be so. Other states have not but eventually they will.

Along the way we can expect a step back for every few steps forward; this is natural.

For instance currently a local municipality is attempting to run a number of dispensaries out of town under the guise of an ordinance stating no business is allowed that may "violate state or federal law".

Tonight a city council meeting was held there and a number of folks showed up in support of the laws we voted for in this state. It remains to be seen how this will turn out, but it is only through these legal tests that our laws are refined at a state level for eventual adoption at a federal level. I personally feel confident that state law will prevail however time will tell.

Pot users with chronic ailments lobby City Council - News - OCRegister.com (http://www.ocregister.com/articles/city-marijuana-medical-2568038-forest-council)

[michaeljohn]

The old legal term for drunk driving, at least in California, was called a 502. It has been 23102a for years, which means drving under the influence of a controlled substance. It could be legal or illegal; alcohol, marijuana, heroin, prescribed painkillers and relaxants, and so on.

Marijuana has been attacked for years, called a gateway drug, and so on. I seriously wonder if its biggest naysyaers ever even tried it.

As long as we tell people not to smoke it, they are going to want to smoke it and will. I think it is far better to educate society on how to use it. ie, don't get in your car and drive afterwards. However, we tell drivers about drinking and driving and they don't listen. I think legalization will decrease the demand simply because young people won't want it as it isn't a forbidden product.

Personally, I can't even remember the last time I used it. People at an old second job of mine used to give me pinches now and then if I would stick around a few more hours at work and let them go home. I either lost it or gave it away. It was once something I enjoyed, but I stopped because I simply didn't like the fact it put me to sleep and spoiled whatever useful plans I had.

I don't argue at all with the people's testimonies verifying its medicinal qualities. For some it is true, for others it is probably just an excuse to get high. As long as a user doesn't break another law while under the influence and knows his responsibility using it, it should be legalized. As has been said, legalization provides tax revenue. The argument 20-30 years ago was the only reason it wasn't legal is the government hasn't figured out how to tax it.

[Juan.Camaney]

California State Flower: Golden Poppy - SHG Resources (http://www.shgresources.com/ca/symbols/flower/)

Like I said, its the golden poppy

[BackdoorJesus]

sorry for your cousin but if he died due to some dependency on marijuana when it was already illegal, how is it possible that legalization could have made his situation any worse?

The problem there is the abuser, not laws in place...with all due respect and sympathy I would venture that he probably had dependency issues with more things than just marijuana.

[Juan.Camaney]

lol his cousin didnt die dude. just trolling. there is no such thing as a marijuana overdose.

[Krasch]

lol his cousin didnt die dude. just trolling. there is no such thing as a marijuana overdose.

To be fair, Juan, we don't know the circumstances of his cousin to know whether said cousin is or is not dead.

BDJ has it right though. If he IS dead, it's because he was an abuser of drugs, and not because of the legality or not of MJ.

And while you are likely correct that he probably would not die from an MJ overdose, I should think that almost any substance is toxic if consumed in large enough quantities, MJ included, It's all a matter of exactly how much is too much.

[Juan.Camaney]

No one would use the :run: smiley and then say darn when remembering their dead cousins. Seriously. Dependent on marijuana? Really?

[ddoubleez]

lol his cousin didnt die dude. just trolling. there is no such thing as a marijuana overdose.

Correct, a previous supreme court judge said it was one of the safest plants known to man....

The only deaths that anyone has been able to link to weed is suffocation due to vomit, and there are fewer than a dozen of these cases, and most were consuming alcohol at the same time.

If this guy really wanted marijuana to stopped being used for recreation, he should support the medical laws....

New Report: Teen Marijuana Use Down In States With Medical Marijuana Laws

MedicalMJ.org - Medical Marijuana Facts and News Updates (http://www.medicalmj.org/usereport.htm)

what I am telling you to chill out on is the "now now now" mentality that you seem to have.

We won't all get insurance coverage for medical marijuana, yet.

DEA arrests won't come to an abject halt, yet.

This substance is not legal in all states of the union or at the federal level, yet.

The point is, that the wheels are in motion and while there is still a lot of work to do a lot of work has already been done at the state and federal level, and the attitudes of an ever-increasing majority of the citizenry in this nation continue to change toward a more progressive attitude toward marijuana as a legitimate medicine as well as in general.

When I say "chill the fuck out" and "eat the elephant one bite at a time" I am saying that while there is still a lot of work to do, it has to be done calmly and in baby steps, but at the same time we should not ignore the enormous amount of progress already made to get us to this point.

Thing of this thread is, the debate is over, so Juan & I are at a loss as to why we're pursuing this circuitous conversation because materially we all seem to agree, however in methodology or urgency, we do not, apparently.

Regardless, the question at the top of the page is "Should Marijuana be legalized?" and I think we've all done an adequate job of affirming that it probably should be.

Thanks for the clarification and sorry for agravating you, let me explain why I can not have a chill attitude:

I have a now, now, now attitude about, because I think that is the only way yall will win. I have a now, now, now attitude, because people in prison need the now, now, now attitude. I have a now, now, now attitude because we did not in the 70's when 12 states legalized it after Dr. Timothy Leary ALREADY did what yall are trying to do again, he got it legalized and they just rewrote the laws, and everyone just chilled.... Most activists in your state will tell you not to chill.

.
And while you are likely correct that he probably would not die from an MJ overdose, I should think that almost any substance is toxic if consumed in large enough quantities, MJ included, It's all a matter of exactly how much is too much.

You are correct Krasch, they have determined that a 150 man would have to eat 400 pounds in a four hour period to overdose.... They determinde this by using tinctures on mice. I hope you know your own body produces the compounds that occur in the plant.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocannabinoid_system

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n31Nuj_AvTg

[BackdoorJesus]

but see, deez...this is just a discussion forum...it is not a platform for activism. And if you think it IS a platform for activism you are unfortunately mistaken - you will need a much higher-traffic forum than ours to "spread the word".

We can chat here until the cows come home and it will not make a lick of difference to those people, so if you want to have a rational and reasonable discussion then let 'er rip but if you want to start up a protest march you are in the wrong place.