Senator proposes in-state tuition for illegal immigrants

[joerockhead]

HELL NO!!!!

State Sen. Chris Romer is sponsoring a bill that would allow students who are illegal immigrants to pay in-state tuition at Colorado's colleges and universities. Regardless of their immigration status, SB 170 would give the in-state tuition rate to students who attended a Colorado high school, graduating or achieving a GED, and who have enrolled in a Colorado public college or university within five years of getting their high school diplomas. "Students with a college education are more productive and more likely to be civically engaged," said Romer, D-Denver. "Passing this legislation will help keep us economically competitive with our neighboring states and give these kids the chance to give back to the Colorado communities where they have grown up." The bill has been endorsed by the University of Northern Colorado Board of Trustees, the Boulder Valley School District and Denver Public Schools. Federal law makes all children, including those of illegal immigrants, eligible to attend public schools from kindergarten through high school. Supporters of the bill said the money spent on the child in public school would be wasted if he or she couldn't attend college. "Out-of-state tuition rates are 97 to 559 percent higher than in-state rates," said Carlos Valverde of the Colorado Progressive Coalition, one of several groups supporting the bill. "These costs are prohibitively high and mean that talented Colorado high school graduates must put their education on hold indefinitely." But Sen. Dave Schultheis, a longtime proponent of greater restrictions on illegal immigration, said the bill would just invite lawsuits from out-of-state students who would want the in-state tuition rate as well. "I will seek students that will sue, frankly," Schultheis, R-Colorado Springs, said. "This is totally opposed to what I believe the citizens of Colorado want to see happen." "Why UNC is coming out in favor of this I don't know, unless they just want more students and more tuition dollars."

[Krasch]

HELL NO!!!!
I agree with Joerockhead totally.

Neither the US or Canada is that hard to legally immigrate to. If they want in-state rates in Colorado, they should emigrate legally and contribute fully in terms of their civic responsibilities.

[kulotsalot]

I agree with Joerockhead totally.

Neither the US or Canada is that hard to legally immigrate to. If they want in-state rates in Colorado, they should emigrate legally and contribute fully in terms of their civic responsibilities.


Umm... this is based on just one particular case, but we've known an ophthalmologist couple from the Philippines who have been waiting to immigrate to the US legally for over 10 years. They were even sponsored by the guy's brother in their application and they were still waiting 10 years later. And these are very skilled people, not your regular Joe off the street. So... is it easy to immigrate to the US legally? I think it depends on where you're coming from. From Canada or Europe or other developed countries, it's probably "easy" but from other countries it is virtually impossible.

BUT having said that, I think I'd like to know why tuition can be up to 500% higher if you're from somewhere else. Doesn't the student require the same amount of resources from the school?

[shiiboi]

"Why UNC is coming out in favor of this I don't know, unless they just want more students and more tuition dollars."
Yep, that's the one. The economic crisis is resulting in major cuts in state contributions to state/county colleges along with drops in enrollment. The colleges are looking for any way they can to get some cash.

[Juan.Camaney]

Neither the US or Canada is that hard to legally immigrate to. If they want in-state rates in Colorado, they should emigrate legally and contribute fully in terms of their civic responsibilities.

:bsflag: It is very difficult to migrate here from mexico. A couple in australia (as read off article on fark), who migrated there from india (if I remember correctly) had valid passports and visas to visit their dying brother in the US and were turned away at the airport. The reason? They had tried too many times to migrate to the US before that. The kicker? Besides them having valid tourist visas, Australia participates in the visa waiver program if you have a valid australian passport. I couldn't even get the ex gf a 2 week tourist visa for her to come see Winnie the Pooh :bowrofl:

About the topic...if federal law already prohibits anyone to deny schooling K-12, and they aren't giving illegal immigrants anything free with this bill (meaning they still have to pay SOMETHING) then why not? They've been paying state taxes, sales taxes, etc. You are giving them an incentive to go to school, something LEGAL residents and citizens don't even take advantage of, better themselves and keep them out of a fucked up life....I say go for it.

You aren't really rewarding them with anything by letting them pay less.

[CD]

:bsflag: It is very difficult to migrate here from mexico. A couple in australia (as read off article on fark), who migrated there from india (if I remember correctly) had valid passports and visas to visit their dying brother in the US and were turned away at the airport. The reason? They had tried too many times to migrate to the US before that. The kicker? Besides them having valid tourist visas, Australia participates in the visa waiver program if you have a valid australian passport. I couldn't even get the ex gf a 2 week tourist visa for her to come see Winnie the Pooh :bowrofl:

About the topic...if federal law already prohibits anyone to deny schooling K-12, and they aren't giving illegal immigrants anything free with this bill (meaning they still have to pay SOMETHING) then why not? They've been paying state taxes, sales taxes, etc. You are giving them an incentive to go to school, something LEGAL residents and citizens don't even take advantage of, better themselves and keep them out of a fucked up life....I say go for it.

You aren't really rewarding them with anything by letting them pay less.
Well I was going to reply but you seem to have summed my thoughts up nicely.

[Krasch]

Umm... this is based on just one particular case, but we've known an ophthalmologist couple from the Philippines who have been waiting to immigrate to the US legally for over 10 years. They were even sponsored by the guy's brother in their application and they were still waiting 10 years later. And these are very skilled people, not your regular Joe off the street. So... is it easy to immigrate to the US legally? I think it depends on where you're coming from. From Canada or Europe or other developed countries, it's probably "easy" but from other countries it is virtually impossible.

BUT having said that, I think I'd like to know why tuition can be up to 500% higher if you're from somewhere else. Doesn't the student require the same amount of resources from the school?
I have no doubt it's a somewhat isolated incident you describe, since even the UNHCR (UN Refugee Agency) lists the top 10 asylum accepting countries as (data as of 2007):

United States
Sweden
France
Canada
United Kingdom
Greece
Germany
Italy
Austria
Belgium


Canada alone accepts close to 50% of all applicants.

Fact is, if you really want to see where a refuigee can't get in for love or money, look to places like Japan, not the USA or Canada.

I'm not going to say it's EASY to immigrate to the US or Canada, but compared to most other countries it's a cakewalk.

[Juan.Camaney]

I have no doubt it's a somewhat isolated incident you describe, since even the UNHCR (UN Refugee Agency) lists the top 10 asylum accepting countries as (data as of 2007):

United States
Sweden
France
Canada
United Kingdom
Greece
Germany
Italy
Austria
Belgium


Canada alone accepts close to 50% of all applicants.

Fact is, if you really want to see where a refuigee can't get in for love or money, look to places like Japan, not the USA or Canada.

I'm not going to say it's EASY to immigrate to the US or Canada, but compared to most other countries it's a cakewalk.
Numbers tell no story without facts backing them. Granted, it *IS* harder in other countries BUT, think about how the US accepts refugees and people seeking assylum. Only countries that are war torn and pretty fucked up are accepted; ie Cubans. Cubans don't differ much from mexicans...speak the same language, have the same work ethic, and both countries are neither too fucked up nor do too well. People don't starve in Cuba...people DO starve in mexico. But since they are full on dictatored, they can float on a fucking raft, make it to dry land and all of a sudden they are legal and can work here. But not mexicans. Nooooo. They have to prove they have all sorts of money in the bank, prove they are educated, prove a whole bunch of shit, pay the money up front, and then guess what? Denied, try back in a year. :usuck: It may have been easier for you (assuming you are an immigrant) but for other people who are immigrants (and people like me who make side work out of helping them migrate) we know its not easy. As a matter of fact, if memory serves me right, I believe kulots was the one who told me her family decided to migrate to Canada because it was easier than migrating to the US.

So...if granting people in state tuition might send them back home better educated, maybe they can help out their own country, raise their families in better situations and improve the lifestyle of the world in general. This whole idea of borders never really appealed to me. What's wrong with choosing where you want to go try to make a living?

[zpr]

BUT having said that, I think I'd like to know why tuition can be up to 500% higher if you're from somewhere else. Doesn't the student require the same amount of resources from the school?


I asked that same question when I was registering for a few classes. The answer I got was that resident tuition is subsidized by tax dollars paid by the student and their families.

[kulotsalot]

Yup, we picked Canada because it is easier to come here legally than to the US. As far as we were concerned they were pretty much the same anyway (same language, same sort of "culture" if you can call it that, food, etc etc). It took us ~3 years from the moment we mailed in our application to when we landed in YVR. And that is without a family member in Canada sponsoring or "vouching" for us, which the couple in my story had.

You have to understand, Krasch, that applying for refugee status (basically seeking asylum) is just one form of immigration, and yes, Canada is very accepting of that. However, unless you are coming from an embattled country like Juan said, you cannot apply for asylum. What are you running from? A bad economy? Corrupt government? Well, every country has that. So you go through the "normal" route which back in the day was called a "skilled worker" application, basically proving that you can be a productive member of Canadian society and pull your own weight without collecting EI. There is a big difference between applying for refugee status (which is easy to get, apparently, based on your numbers) and applying as a non-refugee immigrant. It is the latter that took us close to 3 years, the couple in my story 10+ years (last I heard they were still in the Philippines, so probably closer to 20 years now), 5 years for my aunt's family, and averaging 4 years for other friends and family that we know of.

You have to prove that you have enough money to sustain you through those months when you are still adjusting to the new language, culture, job-finding techniques, etc. You have to prove that you have the education and/or experience in your field to make you qualified to work here. You have to prove that you understand and can communicate in English or French. You have to prove that you have no criminal record, and that you are in good health so that the gov't won't have to pay for your chronic diseases. Easy? I think not.

In any case, 500% more for tuition seems absolutely insane to me. And not everyone who lives in the area will pay taxes anyway so I'm not sure that that reason holds water. I'm thinking that a typical (full time) student makes very little money and mostly relies on credit and ramen, so they will likely pay little to no taxes. When I was in school the very little amount of money I made working weekends was hardly taxed at all with all the tax deductions for tuition, books, etc. that I got on my tax return. I guess they're assuming that they will get some rich kids from never never land studying abroad on daddy's dime who can afford to pay 500% of the regular tuition. WHAT?!

I'm all for furthering people's education as long as they pay their fair share. It's not like giving them the in-state tuition will give them a free ride, just a less expensive one! And if they are really that much in the red then perhaps they should redistribute the tuition fees a little better so the disparity is less apparent. It's great that you have this $1000 plate on the menu that will make up for all the $5 daily specials that you sell, but if no one can afford that $1000 plate then your business is still losing money!

[CD]

I'll take Clemson as an example. If I was to live in the state for a few years that means I've paid state taxes. If I go to an in-state school, then I will remain in the state for a few more years. When I graduate from said school, there is a chance I stay and work in the state and pay more state taxes. So if you are looking at 6 years of staying in the state (2 years prior to qualify), paying state taxes, and supporting local businesses, why in hell would the state NOT want to help you out? Education is what turns a "manufacturing" state into a "designing" state, and those higher paying jobs means higher state tax revenue.

This has nothing to do so far with the immigration policy, but combine what I said with Juan, and I think you will understand the idea behind it.

[joerockhead]

I emailed the Senator and stated my position, to my surprise, he replied.
And he pointed out the part that Juan had said.

1st, they have to be accepted, which means they have to be educated already, and pass the same entrance exam as legal residence.
2nd, they have to pay, they may have opportunities to get benefits, but, they have to pay,
3rd, most likely, they have been living in the state for many years already and contributing.

And it would benefit them and the state to have classes full and people being better educated.

I am still thinking over the idea, but I am not 100 % against it as I was before.

[Juan.Camaney]

Joe man, I know I'm biased on the immigration issues for obvious reasons, but I just don't see how having a better educated population, legal or not, can possibly hurt. I'd deport every single illegal that is encarcerated and actually causing us great debt before I kicked out an illegal in college.

[Juan.Camaney]

The only good con argument I've ever heard was the one about the pilots of 9/11 just "trying to learn to be pilots" and were illegal.

[Krasch]

Joe man, I know I'm biased on the immigration issues for obvious reasons, but I just don't see how having a better educated population, legal or not, can possibly hurt. I'd deport every single illegal that is encarcerated and actually causing us great debt before I kicked out an illegal in college.
While I'm still not sure they deserve to get the same benefits as those who live legally within the state when it comes to tuition and other stuff, I'm all behind the sentiment here.

If they ARE criminals, and here illegally, ship 'em back in a crate.

Air holes strictly optional.

If you're emigrating to create a better life, then leave crime behind you. We have more than enough home grown crime.

[Juan.Camaney]

It's not a benefit, to me. Benefits are giving them financial aid. It's like getting fucked in the ass, does it matter if its half way in or balls deep? You're still getting fucked.

[joerockhead]

JUan -
I understand what you are saying, and, as I said, I can see it being ok somewhat. But I still have the issue that we the US do nearly nothing to enforce illegal immigration, and to me, this just encourages more and more, and people will give in more and more.

The more laws you become lax in, the more people will take advantage.

as for Krash saying send them back in boxes, well, I think that is way extreme. We do not have to be animals to them or treat other people like animals.
Just enforce our laws. Legally and properly.

[Krasch]

JUan -
I understand what you are saying, and, as I said, I can see it being ok somewhat. But I still have the issue that we the US do nearly nothing to enforce illegal immigration, and to me, this just encourages more and more, and people will give in more and more.

The more laws you become lax in, the more people will take advantage.

as for Krash saying send them back in boxes, well, I think that is way extreme. We do not have to be animals to them or treat other people like animals.
Just enforce our laws. Legally and properly.
I was exaggerating a tad about the crates part...lol

But when it comes to getting criminals who are here illegally the hell out of my country, I don't much care about the niceties of how it's done as long as it is. Seen far too many cases in the news of people slipping through the cracks and then committing some violent crime to have much solicitude.

[CD]

How would you figure out what country to send them to? They may not cooperate and tell you anything.

[Juan.Camaney]

Okay, so I guess we ventured onto the topic of getting rid of illegals because they are criminals...wouldn't you want to get rid of the hardcore crimminals before we get rid of people mowing your lawns to put their children through college?

Seriously, I never understood that logic. Lets see, I have cancer and a cold. Well the obvious solution is take a little NyQuil, fuck that chemo thing.

[joerockhead]

Okay, so I guess we ventured onto the topic of getting rid of illegals because they are criminals...wouldn't you want to get rid of the hardcore crimminals before we get rid of people mowing your lawns to put their children through college?

Seriously, I never understood that logic. Lets see, I have cancer and a cold. Well the obvious solution is take a little NyQuil, fuck that chemo thing.


You have Cancer and a Cold??? DAMN!!!
:eek3:

This topic is wandering off.

Yes, I suppose, that it would benefit all if the illegal alien (does not have to be Mexican, could be Puerto Rican, or Brazilian, or Canadian) is able to pass the exam and to be able to afford the costs. The the individual will become better educated and help out both the US and possibly the country they are from.

But, we have to ensure that these great minds are not taking spots from eligible Coloradoians. Nor get Tuition assistance, unless they can prove they have been paying taxes for the last couple of years (two or three should be enough).

And actually, this is not of major concern to me any longer, since we are about to waste 600 Billion Dollars on BS.

[Juan.Camaney]

You have Cancer and a Cold??? DAMN!!!
:eek3:

This topic is wandering off.

Yes, I suppose, that it would benefit all if the illegal alien (does not have to be Mexican, could be Puerto Rican, or Brazilian, or Canadian) is able to pass the exam and to be able to afford the costs. The the individual will become better educated and help out both the US and possibly the country they are from.

But, we have to ensure that these great minds are not taking spots from eligible Coloradoians. Nor get Tuition assistance, unless they can prove they have been paying taxes for the last couple of years (two or three should be enough).

And actually, this is not of major concern to me any longer, since we are about to waste 600 Billion Dollars on BS.

ugh, sorry to say this Rock dude, but I'm done in this argument.

Puerto Ricans are US citizens.

[joerockhead]

ugh, sorry to say this Rock dude, but I'm done in this argument.

Puerto Ricans are US citizens.

Ugh,
Yes you are right, but I was trying to make a point that not all illegal aliens are Mexican. Sorry to try and agree with you.