California voters what do you think of Prop 2

[ddoubleez]

Californian, many times, leads the way for all of the United States to make a change... If you like higher quality food, healthier food, watching your weight or just think animals need 'just a little respect', this may be a good opportunity to make a difference in your state.....

Of course, if you feel this is unnecessary, please share your thoughts....


PG version:

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R rated version:

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[Juan.Camaney]

CA has more important issues than this shit.

[BackdoorJesus]

yeah what juan said.

besides, upon briefly reviewing this bill, it appears that it would not only introduce more Gov't requlation (which is neither free nor welcome) but also negatively impact several CA Ag Industries particularly CA Egg growers. In that industry alone this negative impact could be as much as greater than 600 million in annual revenue not to mention loss of more than 3,000 jobs.

So, "no" would be my vote, although I find more & more that my vote means absolutely nothing in this Libtard state.

[ddoubleez]

CA has more important issues than this shit.

Thanks for the opinion, however, california does not even have enough water for its people, and most of its water is to support factory type of farming.....

Just some FYI.........

And can you tell me what is more important than water? Maybe oil, I am undecided :) . Also, let me remind you that when we were arguing if we could make it through a transition of dwindling oil supplies, you were recommending this type of farming, and said we could go back to it....?? How can we if people that argue that it is an answer, will not endorse it?

yeah what juan said.

besides, upon briefly reviewing this bill, it appears that it would not only introduce more Gov't requlation (which is neither free nor welcome) but also negatively impact several CA Ag Industries particularly CA Egg growers. In that industry alone this negative impact could be as much as greater than 600 million in annual revenue not to mention loss of more than 3,000 jobs.

So, "no" would be my vote, although I find more & more that my vote means absolutely nothing in this Libtard state.


I would love a further elaboration here.... The EU already made the change and their economy is crushing ours.... You do know that this type of farming has to be done on a smaller scale, family farms, instead of gigantic compounds run by half a dozen people and illegals..... Organic farming and free range ranching made gains of 17 to 26 percent year to year for the past 6 years, no other sector has made these gains......

Overview
Organic farming has become one of the fastest growing segments of U.S. agriculture. U.S. producers are turning to certified organic farming systems as a potential way to lower input costs, decrease reliance on nonrenewable resources, capture high-value markets and premium prices, and boost farm income. Organic farming systems rely on ecologically based practices, such as cultural and biological pest management, and virtually exclude the use of synthetic chemicals in crop production and prohibit the use of antibiotics and hormones in livestock production. Many producers, manufacturers, distributors, and retailers specialize in growing, processing, and marketing an ever widening array of organic food and fiber products.

Organic Food Production in Wisconsin Grows Steadily

Report: Wisconsin Can Thrive on Organic Agriculture
Wisconsin Ag Connection - 11/14/2003

Organic food sales in the United States have grown 20 percent or more
annually for the past decade and remain strong. A new report details the
growth of organic agriculture in Wisconsin and the nation, and encourages
state investment in this value-added marketing strategy.

"Wisconsin has the third-highest number of certified organic farms in the
nation, but our state government and universities provide relatively little
support for organic farming," said Matt Mariola, a graduate student at the
University of Wisconsin-Madison and co-author of the report. "Strategic
public and private investment in organic agriculture and marketing could
result in economic growth for our state."

Entitled "Organic Agriculture in Wisconsin: 2003 Status Report," the report
was released jointly by the UW-Madison Center for Integrated Agricultural
Systems and Gaylord Nelson Institute for Environmental Studies.

According to the USDA, Wisconsin ranks first in the nation for organic
livestock production, with 22 percent of the nation's total organic milk
cows. It ranks second in the nation for acres of organic hay and silage, and
third for acres of organic corn, soybeans, oats and barley. Although organic
crops and livestock represent just a small fraction of Wisconsin's total
agricultural production, organic production grew 92 percent from 1997-2001.

And as far as the comment about not needing regulation, deregulation is why we are having problems with the economy NOW, and I can not believe you do not want what you consume to be regulated?!!! I like you and respect you, but that statement did not have much thought to it, I am guessing..... If I am wrong, please no offence and I am sorry, but really, easy regulation when it comes to food, do you not know what is happening in china with their food???!!!

This farming = more jobs, fewer health problems, domestic food production, more potable water, AND A BIG ONE, fewer green house emissions, sure you do not want to reconsider?

[BackdoorJesus]

I would love a further elaboration here.... The EU already made the change and their economy is crushing ours.... You do know that this type of farming has to be done on a smaller scale, family farms, instead of gigantic compounds run by half a dozen people and illegals..... Organic farming and free range ranching made gains of 17 to 26 percent year to year for the past 6 years, no other sector has made these gains......
According to a May 2008 study by Promar International and commissioned by opponents to Prop. 2, 95% of the California egg industry and accompanying economic output would be lost by 2015. The total economic output of the industry is $648 million and 3,561 jobs. The study also stated that egg production costs would increase by 76%. Additionally, in July 2008 the University of California, Davis conducted a study through their University of California Agricultural Issues Center (AIC). The study concluded that "the best evidence from a variety of sources suggests that (non-organic) non-cage systems incur costs of production that are at least 20 percent higher than the common cage housing systems". This is due to higher feed costs, higher hen laying mortality, higher direct housing costs, and higher labor costs. The study also estimated that the entire California egg industry would relocate to other states during the 5-year adjustment period, and that the implication of this would be that consumer costs would increase by at least 25%.

[ddoubleez]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddoubleez
I would love a further elaboration here.... The EU already made the change and their economy is crushing ours.... You do know that this type of farming has to be done on a smaller scale, family farms, instead of gigantic compounds run by half a dozen people and illegals..... Organic farming and free range ranching made gains of 17 to 26 percent year to year for the past 6 years, no other sector has made these gains......



Quote:
According to a May 2008 study by Promar International and commissioned by opponents to Prop. 2, 95% of the California egg industry and accompanying economic output would be lost by 2015. The total economic output of the industry is $648 million and 3,561 jobs. The study also stated that egg production costs would increase by 76%. Additionally, in July 2008 the University of California, Davis conducted a study through their University of California Agricultural Issues Center (AIC). The study concluded that "the best evidence from a variety of sources suggests that (non-organic) non-cage systems incur costs of production that are at least 20 percent higher than the common cage housing systems". This is due to higher feed costs, higher hen laying mortality, higher direct housing costs, and higher labor costs. The study also estimated that the entire California egg industry would relocate to other states during the 5-year adjustment period, and that the implication of this would be that consumer costs would increase by at least 25%.







Come on man, you usually do much better than this..... Promar International is a front group for monsanto, which is the company that brought us equal, agnet orange, and is currently working with GM seeds that are designed to work with a dreanching of round up..... Monsanto and dow are being blamed, along with behar for wiping out our global bee population!!!

As fir the non organic uncaged production, it would be stupid to continue non-organic production of eggs that is cage free... This would be bringing in feed, unstead of allowing birds to eat from their enviroment..... There is a very simple system of farming where you devide a field into 15 to 30 sectors... You heard a group of cattle into an area of ball clover that has been fertilized with chicken waste, the cows eat the clover to about 2 inches from the ground, and they leave dung behind for beetles to process.... The chickens are allowed into the area after the cattle have had their way with it and the chickens leave ferterlizer behind, and eat the 2 inch ball clover..... By the time the livestock has made it through the 15 sectors the ball clover is grown to a point that will sustain the cattle.... The cattle need fewer medications, infact apple cider is all they need for deworming..... All the shit behind is used and little excess methane is released........

Next please!!!!

http://www.humanecalifornia.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=148:amerworstfarms&catid=36:front&Itemid=144

[Juan.Camaney]

With education, immigration laws, buget crisis, offshore oil stuff, crime, etc., I don't think that this should be the focus. Water crisis has been alive forever and other than raise our rates and put a ban on when I'm allowed to wash my truck, it didn't really affect anything.

[onlyalad]

I, a PETA hater, am going to vote no on this, but not for the reason one might think. While I am not for animal rights, I also am not for animal cruelty. This bill is written incorrectly to accomplish its goal. It will just make eggs produced in California more expensive. It does not prevent eggs in other states or Mexico from sold here. So California eggs will be more expensive than other eggs. People will by the cheap eggs. California will stop producing eggs. Less competition means egg prices will go up and hens will still be in little cages. This is a lose lose. The people of California lose and the hens lose. Think before you vote and vote no.

[ddoubleez]

I, a PETA hater, am going to vote no on this, but not for the reason one might think. While I am not for animal rights, I also am not for animal cruelty. This bill is written incorrectly to accomplish its goal. It will just make eggs produced in California more expensive. It does not prevent eggs in other states or Mexico from sold here. So California eggs will be more expensive than other eggs. People will by the cheap eggs. California will stop producing eggs. Less competition means egg prices will go up and hens will still be in little cages. This is a lose lose. The people of California lose and the hens lose. Think before you vote and vote no.

Many people that are backing this are not concerned, at all about animals... PETA DOES NOT BACK THIS BILL!!!! You see eggs that are produced, by cage free methods, taste better, have almost no bad cholesterol and are higher in beneficial protein..... People like Juan, have probably read that free range eggs build muscle mass faster and the protein is absorbed more efficiently....



There is absolutely no study or evidence that free-range eggs will cause an economic loss... There is, however, compelling evidence that sales increase..... The eggs do cost more, like 2 to three times more, but if you are not able to manage an increase of 8 cents per egg to 20 cents per egg, you may want to reevaluate you employment and income before you get upset about a meal that would cost less than a dollar to eat.....

Meet Real FREE-RANGE EGGS
THE NEW RESULTS ARE IN:
Eggs from hens allowed to peck on pasture are a heck of a lot better than those from chickens raised in cages!
Most of the eggs currently sold in supermarkets are nutritionally inferior to eggs produced by hens raised on pasture. That’s the conclusion we have reached following completion of the 2007 Mother Earth News egg testing project. Our testing has found that, compared to official U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) nutrient data for commercial eggs, eggs from hens raised on pasture may contain:

• 1⁄3 less cholesterol
• 1⁄4 less saturated fat
• 2⁄3 more vitamin A
• 2 times more omega-3 fatty acids
• 3 times more vitamin E
• 7 times more beta carotene

http://www.motherearthnews.com/eggs.aspx


Free range egg sales rise
31 March 2008

Noble Foods, Britain’s egg producer, has experienced an increase in free range egg sales.

Free range eggs have risen by almost a third since the end of last year. And for the first time in February more households are buying into free-range eggs rather than caged eggs.

http://www.freebetty.com/news_article.php?article=124

Easy Health Tip: Switch to Free Range Eggs - Nutritional Statsmotherearthnews.com — The results are in: Eggs from hens allowed to peck on pasture are a HECK of a lot better than those from chickens raised in cages. Highlights include 1/3rd less cholesterol, 1/4 the saturated fat, and WAY more vitamin A, E, omega-3's, and beta carotene. Is YOUR health worth an extra $1?

http://digg.com/health/Easy_Health_Tip_Switch_to_Free_Range_Eggs_Nutritio nal_Stats

Organic Free-Range Eggs
Buy farm fresh eggs here!
Fox Fire Farms soy free chicken eggs are raised on certified organic pastures. Our hens are truly cage free and free roaming. In fact these egg laying hens have a mobile chicken house that rotates to fresh pasture every 3 days. This rotation provides the free range chickens with ample bugs and grass to eat.



The first thing you will notice about Fox Fire Farms eggs is the beautiful colored egg shells. The egg shells of our free range eggs have different colors due to the different species of chickens we have. Commercial egg producers always sell brown eggs because they figured out that people would assume that brown eggs were healthier over white, green, tan or blue eggs. That theory works. 99% of consumers believe that a brown egg is the healthiest. But there is absolutely no health benefits from the color of the egg shell. The health benefits come from the way the hens are raised regardless of the species or color of the egg shell.



The second thing you will notice is the dark yellowish/orange yokes. You will also notice the yokes are firmer. Chickens will lay beautiful firm dark yoke eggs if you let them graze in fresh new pasture, eating bugs, grass, and taking in lots of fresh air. Bugs are a huge part of the diet of a chicken. Chickens need large amounts of protein because they are omnivores just like humans.



Organic egg producers do not feed their chickens bugs because they are cooped up in a large warehouse; making it impossible for chickens to have access to fresh air, bugs, and grass. That's why you may see egg cartons say they are supplementing them with Flax seed, Soy meal, omega 3's ECT. Even some small farm producers supplement their chickens with a blend of grains designed for egg laying chickens. These supplements usually contain large amounts of soy protein. Soy products are harmful to a chicken's reproductive and emotional system. Soy when digested turns into a female hormone. All the eggs (even organic) you buy at the grocery store can contain large amounts of soy. Studies have found that soy can have damaging effects on the human body, even causing cancer cells to grow. Fox Fire Farms free-range eggs are guaranteed not to have any traces of soy.



Some egg producers claim their chickens are cage free, however all that means is there is a small door that lets the chickens out into a dirt pen. The healthiest eggs to buy are true free-range, pasture raised soy free chicken eggs. These types of chicken eggs might be difficult to find in your local area. That is why Fox Fire Farms is offering you a healthy opportunity to buy a true free range product straight from our farm to your door.


A huge selling point for me on free range farming is it takes far less fuel to produce what we eat... So saving a dime on and egg now will cost you in fuel next year!!!!!!!!

With education, immigration laws, buget crisis, offshore oil stuff, crime, etc., I don't think that this should be the focus. Water crisis has been alive forever and other than raise our rates and put a ban on when I'm allowed to wash my truck, it didn't really affect anything.

I understand what you are saying, but disagree... The water crisis has been there, because it has taken this long for voters to understand why they have no water... A ban on washing a car or watering you lawn is nothing compaired to the water you use to water a field for feed......

I also have not indicated this should be the focus in california, but you can still vote one way or the other and have an understanding of the benifits of this prop. without loosing site of everything else you mentioned.... AND this is linked to immigration.............

[Juan.Camaney]

The eggs do cost more, like 2 to three times more, but if you are not able to manage an increase of 8 cents per egg to 20 cents per egg, you may want to reevaluate you employment and income before you get upset about a meal that would cost less than a dollar to eat.....
Most people buy eggs per dozen. So if eggs go from 8 a dozen (8*12 = 96 cents....BTW I'd love to know where you are buying eggs this cheap) to 20 cents an egg (2.40) it might not mean much to you and I, but it does when people see eggs from mexico for the old price, see the new price and say...well fuck that.

A huge selling point for me on free range farming is it takes far less fuel to produce what we eat... So saving a dime on and egg now will cost you in fuel next year!!!!!!!!
hehe back to the fuel thing eh....good, but when a lot of the produce comes from other countries, its moot.

The water crisis has been there, because it has taken this long for voters to understand why they have no water... A ban on washing a car or watering you lawn is nothing compaired to the water you use to water a field for feed......
It's not that we have no water, we just don't want to get to dangerously low levels. Californians always have water. A lot of companies are using reclaimed water to flush toilets now a days and a lot more are actually pushing for the whole toilet to tap thing that flopped back in the day when alarmists were running the same shit but people couldn't get passed the whole that same water was in my kidneys a few months ago. The thing is, CA water runs on cycles. Right now, we are dry, when we get another El Niño we'll replenish the ground water, the reservoirs, etc. Thanks to the shitty economy, a lot of people have left CA, so our needs have actually decreased. Couple that with people using more and more bottled water from other sources instead of using tap for drinking water and you get where this is going. This is all from the guy who used to work at 3 water reclamation plants and 1 sewage treatment plant with full reverse osmosis machines that make the water we take out cleaner than what comes out of your tap :yamon: So I'm not just pulling shit out of my ass here.


I also have not indicated this should be the focus in california, but you can still vote one way or the other and have an understanding of the benifits of this prop. without loosing site of everything else you mentioned.... AND this is linked to immigration.............
EVERYTHING is linked to immigration. :jimi: I don't want my governor not passing a budget for almost (or was it more?) than 80 days and then have money be alloted for stupid shit like this that is a non problem. You might think its a problem, But water is more plentiful than some would like you to believe.

If people were really concerned with a solution to all this, they'd knock down the dams, let the wild fires burn and let nature take its cycle....but since no one wants to get rid of their house in the hills, then get your huevos from the paisas and let CA deal with their ever-growing remediation problems of public works projects (yes, I'mplugging my work for more money :juan:)

[onlyalad]

While I cannot say that Free Range eggs are better for you or not, my point is that this bill does not help the hens or the consumer in any way. People who want free range eggs already can get all the benefits they provide. I don't have the numbers but I am confident in assuming that restaurants like McDs and Denny's use a large amount of eggs. They will use the cheapest ones available.

In order for this bill to do anything you suggest it needs to stop importation of other forms of eggs. As long as everyone else can play by the old rules, there is no reason for them to change. The way it is written all it does is put California at a disadvantage. It will not help the growth of a free range product. Most people still don't check where their food comes from. They buy whatever is the cheapest. Some people may see the benefit of a better product, but most will not even think about it.

The point I am trying to make; is for this idea to work they have to make all eggs SOLD IN California meet the higher standard of production. This bill just exports production elsewhere.

[ddoubleez]

While I cannot say that Free Range eggs are better for you or not, my point is that this bill does not help the hens or the consumer in any way. People who want free range eggs already can get all the benefits they provide. I don't have the numbers but I am confident in assuming that restaurants like McDs and Denny's use a large amount of eggs. They will use the cheapest ones available.

In order for this bill to do anything you suggest it needs to stop importation of other forms of eggs. As long as everyone else can play by the old rules, there is no reason for them to change. The way it is written all it does is put California at a disadvantage. It will not help the growth of a free range product. Most people still don't check where their food comes from. They buy whatever is the cheapest. Some people may see the benefit of a better product, but most will not even think about it.

The point I am trying to make; is for this idea to work they have to make all eggs SOLD IN California meet the higher standard of production. This bill just exports production elsewhere.

Again, I can tell you that this is not the case... The reason I have been posting the INCREDIBLE gains of 33% of production of free range eggs, is to indicate the need or demand is not being met..... If these gains continue you will have a state that will be exporting MOST of its eggs.. 20% gains is the equilavent of 64 fold in just a decade.... So if you could not witness these gains in other markets, I would agree with you, however this data would bring me to the understanding that califoria farmers may have to ship more eggs out of state, but not loose production and will increase profitability for meeting needs in a nich that is falling short production wise...

In addition, tax payers in california may see some relief on state funded medical care, when food is healthier...


Free-range eggs join the Burger King menu
US - Have the tycoons behind Burger King eaten too much, or is that a pang of guilt that they're feeling?




A new Burger King?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to the New York Times, the company has decided to begin a programme of animal welfare measures on the meat and eggs it acquires for its restaurants.

The new plan promises that the company will begin purchasing 10% of its pig meat from suppliers that do not use farrowing crates and gestation stalls.

It will also favour chicken suppliers that use, or begin using "controlled-atmospheric stunning," rather than electric shocks.

Over the next few months it hopes to convert 2% of its eggs used in production to free-range sources. The company says its goal is to increase this figure as more farmers shift to these methods and more competitively priced supplies become available.

Chipotle is a fast food restaurant that saw its greatest growth and profitability increase after anoucing the transition to free range.......

[ddoubleez]

Most people buy eggs per dozen. So if eggs go from 8 a dozen (8*12 = 96 cents....BTW I'd love to know where you are buying eggs this cheap) to 20 cents an egg (2.40) it might not mean much to you and I, but it does when people see eggs from mexico for the old price, see the new price and say...well fuck that.


hehe back to the fuel thing eh....good, but when a lot of the produce comes from other countries, its moot.


It's not that we have no water, we just don't want to get to dangerously low levels. Californians always have water. A lot of companies are using reclaimed water to flush toilets now a days and a lot more are actually pushing for the whole toilet to tap thing that flopped back in the day when alarmists were running the same shit but people couldn't get passed the whole that same water was in my kidneys a few months ago. The thing is, CA water runs on cycles. Right now, we are dry, when we get another El Niño we'll replenish the ground water, the reservoirs, etc. Thanks to the shitty economy, a lot of people have left CA, so our needs have actually decreased. Couple that with people using more and more bottled water from other sources instead of using tap for drinking water and you get where this is going. This is all from the guy who used to work at 3 water reclamation plants and 1 sewage treatment plant with full reverse osmosis machines that make the water we take out cleaner than what comes out of your tap :yamon: So I'm not just pulling shit out of my ass here.




If people were really concerned with a solution to all this, they'd knock down the dams, let the wild fires burn and let nature take its cycle....but since no one wants to get rid of their house in the hills, then get your huevos from the paisas and let CA deal with their ever-growing remediation problems of public works projects (yes, I'mplugging my work for more money :juan:)

You can walk into numerous grocery stores in houston and pay a dollar for shitty eggs... Houston has a cost of living that makes people in california stop dead in their tracks... Right now I could buy a 3500 square foot home with 3 car garage in the burbs for under 150,000... I can buy a low quality steak for about 3 bucks a pound... I can pay under 30 bucks for dinner and a movie if I do not have an adult drink....

As for water, your state has had an increase in water polution due to fertilizer that is used to support the large fields are used to supply feed... It is illogical to grow food in a field, then move it to a factory to feed birds that could find a healthier food supply below thier feet...

http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/003/T0234E/T0234E06.htm

[Juan.Camaney]

How is that part of Prop 2? CA is not all about agriculture either, man...I know agriculture is your interest and hobby, but there are millions of us who live here and probably never saw a field. FYI, several cities here use ground water...hundreds of miles away from fields. Before you tell me about underground water streams...they do not head that way :)

[Juan.Camaney]

...as for the link about the nitrogen...the plants I mentioned working in all had denitrification stages

[ddoubleez]

How is that part of Prop 2? CA is not all about agriculture either, man...I know agriculture is your interest and hobby, but there are millions of us who live here and probably never saw a field. FYI, several cities here use ground water...hundreds of miles away from fields. Before you tell me about underground water streams...they do not head that way :)

Ground water has to be processed and there is 'loss' because of contamination due to factory farming...

[ravenshrike]

Monsanto and dow are being blamed, along with behar for wiping out our global bee population!!!

Um, WHAT? The only thing that's been even remotely positively linked to CCD is a mutated form of Nosema Ceranae.

[Juan.Camaney]

Ground water has to be processed and there is 'loss' because of contamination due to factory farming...
hehehe I know you read a lot, so I know you know you are wrong.