Banned for making racial joke?

[ryster]

Firstly, depending on your stance concerning racial humor, you may be offended by the following image.

Anyways, yesterday I was banned from a forum for posting this image (http://www.4freeimagehost.com/uploads/4a1075e4f702.jpg) in a "funny pictures" thread. I made it very clear that my intent was strictly humor, and I didn't seek to offend anyone with the image. I cannot help but feel wronged after getting this ban, it expires in three days and, depending on whether my current e-mail is answered, I plan to send the admins a PM concerning the ban.

I know the community around here is large, varied, and contains a number of black people, so I want to hear what you all think.

Here's what I have to say:

I cannot count the number of times black people (anyone from random people back in high-school to full-fledged comedians) have made racial jokes about blacks, specifically concerning their stereotypical "love" of fried chicken. I know that, like all stereotypes, that one is a massive generalization. Not only do not all blacks like fried chicken, but those who do, along with their white companions, probably like fried chicken because it has a good taste.

Racial culture, however, may very well have an impact. Fried chicken can be considered as much of a cultural food for black Americans as hamburgers and hot dogs are for white Americans. Many blacks live and have lived for generations in the deep south, where the art of cooking fried chicken has been perfected. Now, that doesn't account for black folk living outside the US, but neither does African-American, and nobody seems to mind that awful, "politically-correct" name for blacks in general.

I mean, when it comes down to it, I want to know why people take anything racial from white people so seriously. I as an individual have never wronged any black on account of there race, nor am I in any way responsible for the actions of the slave-owners of Americas past (besides the fact that many slaves were sold to Americans by black, African slaveholders). Black people abroad haven't been persecuted for their entire history, as a race, and those who were weren't persecuted specifically by whites. Racial jokes are no worse that any other sort, and for god sakes, the "N" word is no worse than the "C" word or the "F" word, Especially considering how frequently it is used by the lower-class blacks (and lower-class whites), such as those in gangs.

I think 80% of the time people who are quick to raise the "RACIST!" flag are the true racists, rationalizing that any racial comment will inevitably offend black people, because, "well, it must be true." I mean, I know (based of my experience with blacks and people of other ethnicity) that most black people are smart enough to differentiate humor from abuse (just like white people are able to - we are the same...RIGHT, Mr. Anti-Racist) and if the Anti-Racial Extremists would gtfo or stfu, racial discrimination in 1st world countries would, as a broad mindset, entirely disappear.

Finally, if anyone desides to be an ignorant prick and assume I am a Neo-Nazi or some bull shit, well

-I have cousins directly from Iran
-I am half German
-I worked side by side (when I would visit during the summer and fall) with a black person on my grandparents farm in Saugerties, NY
-My best friend is 1/4 American Indian and 1/4 native Hawaiian
- :hijackr:

Anyways,

I hope to get some solid, intelligent replies from both sides (and all races!!!), as I seek to understand why people think the way they do.

Looking forward to it,

RYSTER

[canu]

:hide:

[Juan.Camaney]

Comparing webrats to any other forum is not being realistic. We all know that picture is racist. We do not all find it offensive, however. My advice...quit being a cunt, take your ban as a slap on the wrist, continue to participate if its a fun forum. If not, hang out here and put as much racist shit as your heart wants in the bottom of the hole and we'll lol right with you.

[watzizname]

Its an interesting point, in that perhaps, someone who's Anti-Racist, is in fact adding more weight & confirming a real racist point of view, by defending someone who's skin colour (of all things) happens to be different, like they're incapable of defending themselves, or its an unfortunate vulnerability / handicap to be anything other than white, even if the intent was nothing of the sort.

However, you have to remember that everyone is different, and not everyone will come to the same conclusions given the same piece of information, and the fact is, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
If those causing the problems, had enough inteligence to bitch about & blame something other than another race for all their problems, society wouldn't have had to impose such rules.

Race hate is a real problem, that needs to be dealt with, and i guess this is the way our society has chosen to deal with it right now.. i would suggest you get on board or go the way of the dinosaurs.

[CD]

Just clone Bill Cosby and eliminate Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

The last 2 names are among the handful of people trying to keep racism alive. Because without it, they wouldn't have much to do and probably wouldn't have millions of dollars at their disposal.

Bill Cosby says the things needed to be said, and it's not something the "ghetto" blacks want to hear. It means they have to grow up and realize that Sharpton and Jackson can't hand them the perfect life... they have to earn it.

But on the flipside, your image was mildly offensive, but blacks in general have heard MUCH worse... even from their own.

[ryster]

Edit: just read CD's post.

I think your exactly right, and while the picture is offensive, I don't think it is a hateful thing. Its just like some Stand-Up comedians direct their comedy towards youth, while others towards the most raunchy, crude-humored adults around. It might offend someone, but it isn't a sign of hate when it's so clearly designed to be humorous. I guess it comes down to the fact that I am a member of the crude-humored un-politically-correct adults club, and not everyone around wants to be in here with me. I suppose it's sort of like you shouldn't throw stuff like that around when you don't know who your audience is.

I guess your right watzizname, there's not really anything I can do about it. However I'm not sure what you mean when you said "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem". I mean, are you implying I, by making a racial joke, am part of the problem? I disagree completely - as a matter of fact, I think that is exactly what society needs to get over this racial bullshit. People need to use the same common sense they do when they watch Stand-Up Comedy and that's seeing the difference between a joke and a truly hateful remark. Race shouldn't be a taboo topic, because doing so alienates one race from another. Nobody should give a flying fuck whether the person sitting next to them is black or white or any other colored skin. I should be able to crack a joke about a "big dumb nigger" whilst sitting in the most racially diverse crown imaginable right after I crack one about a "ugly fat whore". Fair enough everyone is different, but if you are so different that you are incapable of seeing the line between harmless humor and racial hate, than you are either very ignorant of very stupid.

But I'm still curious to know what the people who are proponents of such a stance (as in, I make a racial joke, I must be a racist).

And Juan, with all due respect, I wasn't asking for your advice. Or anyone's, for that matter. I will deal with my actions on that forum as I see fit. I want to know, what do you really think about it? Do you give a shit if someone cracks a joke that stereotypes Mexicans?

And you say that picture is racist, is it really? I mean, define racism. Literally racism is any discrimination whatsoever based upon race, which in itself is an unavoidable aspect of human nature. If you had to pick between to futbol teams, as a Mexican, given no other information on the teams, would you choose to join the team comprised of Mexicans or Englishmen? The odds are you would choose the Mexicans because you associate them with yourself through your racial kinship. Is there anything wrong with that? I don't think so. It is human nature, and it alone has never hurt anyone.

The real problem is racial hate, as watzizname said, which has in today's world become known as "racism". The picture is of a bug-eyed black man looking at a bucket of KFC. The idea came from the commonly used stereotype that black people like fried chicken. Black people joke about it, why can't white people? Well the reason is white people are inherently racist...right? We owe the black people something, we have wronged them in some way, we cannot make fun of them because of this. It's a load of bollocks and every literate human being knows this.

The picture is a joke, the people who think it's anti-black are the ones who need to get over themselves, stop being cunts, and grow the fuck up.

Do any non-white people around here find race, as a source of comedy, offensive and inappropriate?

[Juan.Camaney]

I'm sorry, I figured since you posted all the unecessary details about the ban (unecessary if the post wasn't asking for advice about the ban) that you might want "advice" or maybe just a learn the rules of other forums because some (like here) are lax about racial humor and some aren't.

There is no question that the picture is racial humor. Most people associate watermelon or fried chicken because of stereotypes that are pretty deeply rooted back when things between blacks and whites weren't exactly peachy. Now, good old country boys love fried chicken too, but no one would associate them unless you were from the south. Some people get a kick out of racial jokes (I included) and then again, others would downright spit in your face for something as simple as that.

PC police asside, I don't find it offensive. But if I was shown that in a business atmosphere I would have to dissaprove because it is unnapropriate. Unapropriate for you is different than unapropriate for other people, and apparently, the people of that forum didn't agree with you.

I don't take offense to the mexican jokes that I am the butt of around here. Why? Cuz I know these guys mean it light heartedly otherwise I'd ban them out of spite. (haha j/k :squint: ) I do take offense when other's do it in mean spirits. If you are moronic enough to actually believe the stupid stereotypes some cracker came up with way back when niggers were still running barefoot, then you should probably keep that shit to yourself.

As far as the "futbol" I'd side with the team that was more probably going to win, not just with the mexicans blindly...specially if I had money to wager.

FYI, just because the people of the race being made fun of make fun of it too, doesn't mean its not racist. I've never said "ese" in normal conversation, or had an aunt who wore a thong sideways so it wouldn't hurt her panocha, and fuck George Lopez for even thinking I did.

[joerockhead]

Using excuses like Your Best Friend is 1/4 American Indian and 1//4 Hawaiian and the fact you worked with African Americans or Black people does not dispel you from being Racist.

You posted a picture that is directly influence by a summoned culture.

You have offended someone on the other site and that got you the Ban.

When the Ban is over, you should apologize.

No, you may not understand why someone finds it racist, but someone did. As you get older and understand life more, you will understand. This does not make you a NEO-Nazi nor a Race hater. What is in the Soul is what would make you bad. And we do not know that, so we will not judge you.

Also, in all my years in the US Navy, I knew Many Many Men and Women of different cultures and countries and heritages. That does not keep me from being a Racist, I can still be one.

Ignorance is the biggest cause of Racism.

[Krasch]

Just clone Bill Cosby and eliminate Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

The last 2 names are among the handful of people trying to keep racism alive. Because without it, they wouldn't have much to do and probably wouldn't have millions of dollars at their disposal.

Bill Cosby says the things needed to be said, and it's not something the "ghetto" blacks want to hear. It means they have to grow up and realize that Sharpton and Jackson can't hand them the perfect life... they have to earn it.

But on the flipside, your image was mildly offensive, but blacks in general have heard MUCH worse... even from their own.
Right on, and clone Clarence Thomas while you're at it.

He was saying much the same thing as Cosby years ago.

Personally I'd say that those out there who seemingly champion the gangsta rap, don't snitch, pants around your knees lifestyle are holding blacks back far more than anything the evil white man does these days. They're presenting an image of their own people as thugs, and it needs to stop if we're ever going to see real equality.

[watzizname]

everyone is different, and not everyone will come to the same conclusions given the same piece of information, and the fact is, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
If those causing the problems, had enough inteligence to bitch about & blame something other than another race for all their problems, society wouldn't have had to impose such rules.

Race hate is a real problem, that needs to be dealt with, and i guess this is the way our society has chosen to deal with it right now.. i would suggest you get on board or go the way of the dinosaurs.
Meaning that not everyone is on the same page, some will look at your image and see it as nothing more than funny, some will allow it to reinforce their already uninformed / distorted preconceptions, & of course a black person might see it as further confirmation that white people are still racist.

Yes, in an ideal world, everyone would get along, but hey, it is, what it is..

And no i don't think that not confronting the situation is the ideal solution, we've a long ways to go, and some further than others..

FYI, just because the people of the race being made fun of make fun of it too, doesn't mean its not racist.Couldn't agree more, 2 wrongs not making a right n all that.

Ignorance is the biggest cause of Racism.Sums it up, i think..

[koЯnut]

I personally don't think there was much harm in the picture you posted. Cracking a joke about a stereotype is pretty much a norm in our society now. However, us white folk are made to feel like we have to walk a thin line in doing so while with other races all bets are off.

Thats the thing that bothers me the most. The hypocrisy angers me to no end. As I've argued here at the WR many times, why do other races get a free pass when it comes to "new school" segregation when the white culture are labeled as racist for doing the same damn things.

What I mean by "new school" segregation is all the instances of other races having their own this or thats. This is done far more by blacks than any other race. Whether it is a t.v. network, a magazine or a college. They are directed, ran and produced primarily for their people.

MLK JR and others tried to end segregation. Nothing was supposed to be in favor of one race. Todays African American culture seems to want things separate.

The minute the white culture would even think of doings these things you'd have Al and Jesse banging down doors like the goddamn Terminator looking for John Conor.


It looks like I went of the original topic a bit so I will make my point. Humor can be a source of defusing racism if the people it's aimed at or about can see it for what it's worth and not try to find some racism hidden agenda. As long as it stays within the boundaries of humor and isn't meant to harm anyone directly (ie the Finley garbage in the Hole).

I woke up early this morning to watch the USA basketball team and only had about four hours of sleep and I also popped a couple perks for my fucked up back. So if all this sounds like retarded gibberish.......ignore and move on.

[Juan.Camaney]

The reason for the black only clubs (and they aren't really black only, you can join NAACP if you want to) is that, pretty much, for the first century and a half, america WAS a white only club. In some instances in corporate america, it still is. I didn't realize it until I was having a conversation with a black friend of mine, but dude, the feeling of inferiority that comes with knowing that back in the day, you would be someone's property...dude.

[fmb]

The reason for the black only clubs (and they aren't really black only, you can join NAACP if you want to) is that, pretty much, for the first century and a half, america WAS a white only club. In some instances in corporate america, it still is. I didn't realize it until I was having a conversation with a black friend of mine, but dude, the feeling of inferiority that comes with knowing that back in the day, you would be someone's property...dude.
This is a good point. Sometimes, we see things through the current looking glass and forget that in the past, the looking glass showed people being beaten, hanged, tarred and feathered, etc.

I look upon juans post as a serious matter; back in the day, my family owned some black folks. Today, this is seen as a serious impedence upon a persons rights. In the past, it was a "ho-hum", everyday life for the man/woman in manacles.

Others have said it in this thread and I'll repeat it: Some things may be said/spoken/displayed if the time is right and the people in the group know you and are aware of your feelings on the subject.

[koЯnut]

The reason for the black only clubs (and they aren't really black only, you can join NAACP if you want to) is that, pretty much, for the first century and a half, america WAS a white only club. In some instances in corporate america, it still is. I didn't realize it until I was having a conversation with a black friend of mine, but dude, the feeling of inferiority that comes with knowing that back in the day, you would be someone's property...dude.



Explain the double standard in other races to me then. For example, I'm watching some random MMA fights a couple weeks ago and this messican dude has the phrase "brown pride" tatted on his belly.

I really don't give a shit. I am proud to be a ragin' guido, so he has every right to be proud of his race. But you can bet your ass if Dick Johnson from Crackersville USA has the words "white pride" inked on his torso, everyone would veiw him as a racist. In fact, I doubt whatever MMA faction it was probably wouldn't even let the guy fight.

I have no problem with cultural pride. I have a problem with other people labeling me racist if I show that pride.

And seriously, enough of the poor us, my great grandfather was a cotton picker for whitey. Yes it was a horrible time. I would have lead the anti slavery fight if I was around back then. But we are past that. I don't owe anyone shit besides my wife and family. We all have had struggles. Pull through and do something positive.

[Krasch]

Both Juan and Kornut make some really good points here.

Yes, the whole "back of the bus" mentality was a terrible terrible thing, and while we've largely moved past that, there's still room for improvement and it needs to be stamped out for the crap it is.

Yes, the hypocrisy is ridiculously unfair. If we're all supposed to be equal, then let's really treat everyone as equal. That "brown pride" tattoo should be seen as just as offensive as a "white pride" tattoo would surely be. To do anything just breeds more racism and resentment, and we get nowhere towards equality.

And yes, the self-pitying, whiny, poor us crap has to go. Same goes for the Jews and the Holocaust BTW. It's vitally important to remember the past, lest we repeat its mistakes. At the same time, if you remain focused on the past, you go nowhere and you'll always be held back. To move forward and make progress, you have to be focused with one eye on now to see where you are, and with one eye on forward to see where you want to go. To continually harp on the past when it cannot be changed serves to do nothing but encourage resentment and the continuation of the same attitudes that put you in that situation in the first place.

Yes in many circles our society is still largely white-only. But that isn't because it has to be, it's because it's a game with rules set up originally by the white man. White men built the society, so they made the rules, suck it up and deal with it.

The key to success these days isn't to whine and complain about that, it is what it is. The key to success is to learn the rules and play the game. There's nothing about the rules that non-whites can't learn, and they can be just as successful at it as whites, they just have to play the game. Affirmative Action isn't necessary, it infantilizes it's targets by reinforcing their feelings of inferiority instead of forcing them to apply themselves and learn to play the game.

If more blacks like Bill Cosby and Clarence Thomas were to tell their community, "Quit feeling sorry for yourself, work hard, pull yer damn pants up, and play the game to win", and were more blacks to take that to heart, we'd see a lot more equality out there. The gangsta mentality is a black person's worst enemy these days, if he has the wit to see it.

[Juan.Camaney]

What double standard? As far as I know, the stars and bars flies proudly over many places in the south. People have KKK rallies all the time. Minutemen show their proud american roots in bumper stickers everywhere. You are racist when you try to put other people down. If all the KKK was about was helping people advance the white race, I'd be proud of their movement. It's preaching hatred and unecessary stereotypes that I frown upon.

If you guys seriously think that people are passed that whole "oops, we're sorry we raped your women and children, beat your men, and hung them for trying to be human, then you guys aren't reading enough. It might be dead in your household, and I applaud you for that, but the fact that this guy got banned for a joke that all of us probably giggled at shows that its not.

Everyone knows that porch monkey scene in Clerks 2. I think this is what comedians are trying to do. They are taking the word back, and taking the power away from it and turning it into something possitive. I, on many ocasions, call my black friends "mah niggas" and they are okay with it. It's changing....but slowly and to say that this stuff is behind us is naive.

That whole brown pride tats...it's really only the lower class cholo and hoods that do that. I wouldn't get one. Doesn't mean I'm not proud. Same with middle and upper class white people...they wouldn't wear a stars and bars sweatshirt to the gym.

[Juan.Camaney]

To add further "walk a mile in their moccasins" type debate...think about the person you hold most dear. Korny, think the wife. You and her were perfectly fine, married about to have a kid and along comes this race of people, they snare you, put ya on a boat and ship you somewhere. The dude that owns you takes a liking to her, and takes her from you whenever he wants and if you say anything he whips you. He rapes her, beats her, and then makes you work his land.

Sorry guys, that type of shit doesn't just go away.

Now you are freed...your children are free, but they can't vote, can't drive, can't learn with the other people....you are free to live at a lower class than white people.

That doesn't go away either.

Now you got you guys today. You didn't see any of this in real life, just read about it in books. So along comes a black educated man who hears you saying "it's the past, it's no big deal" when his father and his father's father actually lived through it.

It never goes away. Ever. It's a part of our fucked up history. Sorry but yeah, white people fucked over a lot of people to get to where they are and a lot of people now are trying to reverse that. It took a couple hundred years to get to where we are and it might take a couple hundred more to feel like we're even.

[koЯnut]

To add further "walk a mile in their moccasins" type debate...think about the person you hold most dear. Korny, think the wife. You and her were perfectly fine, married about to have a kid and along comes this race of people, they snare you, put ya on a boat and ship you somewhere. The dude that owns you takes a liking to her, and takes her from you whenever he wants and if you say anything he whips you. He rapes her, beats her, and then makes you work his land.

Sorry guys, that type of shit doesn't just go away.

Now you are freed...your children are free, but they can't vote, can't drive, can't learn with the other people....you are free to live at a lower class than white people.

That doesn't go away either.

Now you got you guys today. You didn't see any of this in real life, just read about it in books. So along comes a black educated man who hears you saying "it's the past, it's no big deal" when his father and his father's father actually lived through it.

It never goes away. Ever. It's a part of our fucked up history. Sorry but yeah, white people fucked over a lot of people to get to where they are and a lot of people now are trying to reverse that. It took a couple hundred years to get to where we are and it might take a couple hundred more to feel like we're even.


I never said it was no big deal. It was and is a big deal. But it is used as a crutch way to often for people that like me never experienced any of it for one second.

I'm not saying it should be forgotten. It should be preached all over this nation. Use it to educate...not for an excuse.

Just because I might have a great grand pappy that did these horrible things, should have no bearing on black peoples views on me.

Growing up in San Diego I was jumped several times by groups of Mexicans just because I was a white kid. I remember it, but I don't hold any grudges to any Mexicans. In fact, I even kinda sorta have a slight fondness to you Mr. Camaney.

I get it...they were thugs and I was probably on their turf. It might have been my fault for simply walking home from school my freshman year. It makes perfect sense that as I was getting kicked in the face while they were yelling "Fuck you white boy" over and over. Or that time I was playing catch in the park by my house with my cousin and and looked up to see us surrounded by those guys. I won't even get into the beach brawl during Sand Castle Days in Imperial Beach.

Shit happens in history. Either we get over and move on, or hatred will never die.

[Juan.Camaney]

Oh yeah, I know some people use it as a crutch, and to those people I say, STFU and get back to work. What those mexicans did to you was wrong. You don't have to justify their actions. You are a big man for forgiving...some people just have a harder time letting go. These guys beat you up a few times...at least they didn't own you.

[Krasch]

Oh yeah, I know some people use it as a crutch, and to those people I say, STFU and get back to work. What those mexicans did to you was wrong. You don't have to justify their actions. You are a big man for forgiving...some people just have a harder time letting go. These guys beat you up a few times...at least they didn't own you.
I agree that what happened in history IS a big deal, but it IS history.

You say "at least they didn't own you", and you're right. But none of the blacks and other races using historical wrongs as an excuse were owned either. Their ancestors might have been, but that's a totally different story.

The unwillingness to let go of the past only makes things worse. I may be white, but I've never owned slaves, nor would I. And I'm getting damn tired of hearing that everything is the evil white man's fault. Even some whites are born to lesser advantage than others, but they have to haul themselves by their own bootstraps. Why aren't others held to the same standard?

[Juan.Camaney]

I agree that what happened in history IS a big deal, but it IS history.

You say "at least they didn't own you", and you're right. But none of the blacks and other races using historical wrongs as an excuse were owned either. Their ancestors might have been, but that's a totally different story.

The unwillingness to let go of the past only makes things worse. I may be white, but I've never owned slaves, nor would I. And I'm getting damn tired of hearing that everything is the evil white man's fault. Even some whites are born to lesser advantage than others, but they have to haul themselves by their own bootstraps. Why aren't others held to the same standard?
What about all the other stuff they fought for in the civil rights movement? This stuff isn't as old as you think it is. It's not just about slavery, it's about everything that came with being black in racist america. Sure there were people who refused to own slaves back in the day, but it didn't mean it didn't exist. Same now...there are racists that still lead this country. Take that little "innocent" joke the Republican Party made about Obama....if he moves in, is it still called the "white house"...

Again, this isn't about using your color as a crutch, it's about the injustices made by the world on the black man and how it affected them generation through generation.

If you are white, you will never understand it. If you are an outsider like me, you STILL won't understand it, but it might be easier. Don't judge them until you have lived in their shoes, in their color. Hatred is pased on from generation through generation and it hasn't been that long since blacks were still inferior legally.

[Krasch]

What about all the other stuff they fought for in the civil rights movement? This stuff isn't as old as you think it is. It's not just about slavery, it's about everything that came with being black in racist america. Sure there were people who refused to own slaves back in the day, but it didn't mean it didn't exist. Same now...there are racists that still lead this country. Take that little "innocent" joke the Republican Party made about Obama....if he moves in, is it still called the "white house"...

Again, this isn't about using your color as a crutch, it's about the injustices made by the world on the black man and how it affected them generation through generation.

If you are white, you will never understand it. If you are an outsider like me, you STILL won't understand it, but it might be easier. Don't judge them until you have lived in their shoes, in their color. Hatred is pased on from generation through generation and it hasn't been that long since blacks were still inferior legally.
The only problem with that is that it's now politically correct to commit acts of so-called "reverse" racism. And until everyone is treated equal and racism of any sort is considered inappropriate, then we ensure that racism will not only exist, but in fact thrive. All we're doing now is creating a new group of "victims" and it appears the logic that promotes the process is "two wrongs somehow make a right"

[Juan.Camaney]

non sequitor Krasch

[Krasch]

non sequitor Krasch
It does not follow?

Oh I beg to differ, and I'll offer proof.

Just as an example in Canada, we have the Employment Equity Act of 1995.

"The Employment Equity Act designates four groups as the beneficiaries of employment equity:

1) Women

2) People with disabilities

3) Aboriginal people, a category consisting of Status Indians, Non-status Indians, Métis (people of mixed French-Aboriginal ancestry in western Canada), and Inuit (the Aboriginal people of the Arctic).

4) Visible minorities, a category defined as the following (using the nomenclature of the Canadian government): Blacks, Chinese, Filipinos, Japanese, Koreans, Latin Americans, Pacific Islanders, South Asians, and West Asians/Arabs.

The term “non-white” is used in the wording of the Employment Equity Act and in employment equity questionnaires distributed to applicants and employees. This is intended as a shorthand phrase for those who are in the Aboriginal and/or visible minority groups. In this context, the use of the term non-white does open the door to ambiguity. For example, people who are Arabs or Latin Americans may consider themselves to be white, yet the federal government treats Arabs and Latin Americans as members of the visible minority category."

So if you're a white non-disabled male, it's actually politically correct to be discriminated against. And it's happening brother...

I have personally been told when I applied for a government job that whites need not apply. That's not racism?

I have personally been told by a Chinese tenant in my building that I should move because I'm not Chinese, despite the fact that I not he was born here. That's not racism? Do you honestly believe a white person could get away with saying the reverse and not be sued blind?

And even in the US where the legal language is more fairly worded, many companies, in an effort to ensure they're not viewed as racist or such, will actively bend over backwards giving preferential treatment to visible minorities. This kind of practice only serves as reverse racism.

Well, reverse racism is simply racism, period. I can appreciate you may not perceive it as such from your perspective and racial background Juan, but to say "it does not follow" just doesn't pass the litmus test. Whites especially males are now being victimized in society for something they didn't do. It was wrong when blacks and other minorities were being victimized, and it's just as wrong coming back the other way. Two wrongs don't make a right, and creating a new class of victims only serves to continue the problem.

After a few generations of this, what will you expect whites to say when it all comes out in the wash? "We had it good for a while, then we had our just desserts and everything's cool?" Or rather, "We've been shit on for generations and we're pissed..."

The only way for the whole thing to end is to make everyone equal, period. No affirmative action, no reverse racism. Just make everyone stand on their own two feet and let them succeed based on that.

[Juan.Camaney]

it does not follow because racism is wrong no matter what.

[Krasch]

it does not follow because racism is wrong no matter what.
Well on that I certainly agree. Of course it's wrong no matter what.

At the same time, I think even you'd have to agree it's politically correct to be racist against whites these days.

[Juan.Camaney]

Well on that I certainly agree. Of course it's wrong no matter what.

At the same time, I think even you'd have to agree it's politically correct to be racist against whites these days.
To who? True believers in political correctness are racist at heart. Instead of worrying about whether or not to call someone white or black, how about learning the dude's name? But that's besides the point. What you are asking is whether it is politically correct to be racist against whites, and I say no. Take a read through any group like NAACP and MEChA and the likes. They don't exclude any race from joining. They just suggest you support the cause.

Shit, I'm a member of SWE (society of women engineers) and I don't have a cunt.

[Krasch]

To who? True believers in political correctness are racist at heart. Instead of worrying about whether or not to call someone white or black, how about learning the dude's name? But that's besides the point. What you are asking is whether it is politically correct to be racist against whites, and I say no. Take a read through any group like NAACP and MEChA and the likes. They don't exclude any race from joining. They just suggest you support the cause.

Shit, I'm a member of SWE (society of women engineers) and I don't have a cunt.
I totally agree that true believers of political correctness are racist at heart.

That being said, if you're actually of the belief that it's not politically correct to be racist against whites these days, I'd say you're being a touch myopic. I've already given evidence that it in fact does. I'm sure others could give similar experiences.

Now of course you won't find any such language in an NAACP leaflet or position paper, as they'd likely be sued blind if they were careless enough to actually print it.

And MAYBE things are much different in the US than here in Canada, but somehow I doubt it. One need only note the largely successful effort at historical revisionism of Columbus' discovery of the New World to see yet more evidence.

But I'm not surprised you don't see it from your perspective and background. I'm sure there were many whites in the 60's who didn't think we didn't really have racism against blacks back in the day, those who thought that their struggle for equality was just a bunch of rabble-rousers.

So in the end, it appears we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Juan.Camaney]

But I'm not surprised you don't see it from your perspective and background. I'm sure there were many whites in the 60's who didn't think we didn't really have racism against blacks back in the day, those who thought that their struggle for equality was just a bunch of rabble-rousers.
I don't see it because I read rules and bylaws and understand them. My color has nothing to do with it.

A club is set up to follow the rules. The members can then run that club into the ground with breaking the rules all they want.

[ryster]

Woah, I thought this thread sorta died after the first few posts, but I can see it actually turned into an interesting debate. Goddamn good-for-nothin' e-mail notification...

I just wanted to give my two cents on some of what's been said here, maybe somebody will have something to say back. I am pretty much in agreement with what Krasch says, so I'm just going to quote/challenge the other side of the argument.

Also, I am in the middle of a nasty virus, so my mind may not be on the ball, so to speak. A couple feverish and light-headed days in bed with no sleep can really fuck you up, as I'm sure you guys know. So if anything is buggered up in this post, let me know and I will clarify or amend it.

To add further "walk a mile in their moccasins" type debate...think about the person you hold most dear. Korny, think the wife. You and her were perfectly fine, married about to have a kid and along comes this race of people, they snare you, put ya on a boat and ship you somewhere. The dude that owns you takes a liking to her, and takes her from you whenever he wants and if you say anything he whips you. He rapes her, beats her, and then makes you work his land.

Just want to throw in an interesting fact (NOT trying to justify slavery or any of the racist actions in world history), black's weren't always 'snared' by evil white devils. Many, if not the majority of 'imported' African slaves were sold to early American's by slavers in rival African tribes. You don't read about this in history books, of course, because it turns a black and white issue into a gray one. But it is true, nonetheless - if you don't agree with what I'm going to say below, then, according to your argument, modern-day Africans owe modern day African-Americans for history as well. I bold African because not all blacks are African, and not all African-Americans are related to slaves.

Now you are freed...your children are free, but they can't vote, can't drive, can't learn with the other people....you are free to live at a lower class than white people.

Some of the pre-70's might arguably bear some of the blame for this sort of stuff. Though for the younger ones amongst that generation, can you really blame a child for not acting up against racist parents?


Now you got you guys today. You didn't see any of this in real life, just read about it in books. So along comes a black educated man who hears you saying "it's the past, it's no big deal" when his father and his father's father actually lived through it.

If his father lived through it, then the people of his fathers generation are responsible. Give me one good reason why I owe anyone of my generation anything if I have never done a damn thing to them.

It never goes away. Ever. It's a part of our fucked up history. Sorry but yeah, white people fucked over a lot of people to get to where they are and a lot of people now are trying to reverse that. It took a couple hundred years to get to where we are and it might take a couple hundred more to feel like we're even.

Yes, it is part of our history. Yes, it is fucked up and morally wrong. No, it should not be forgotten.

But, you, and this comes down to your basic view of the world (so I can't really tell you you're wrong or right, theres just a stark contrast between our opinions) seem to think that people living today are still tied to what happened in our history.

We are not. As long as I (I'm going to refer to myself, but think of generic person in today's world) had no ability to directly effect these things in our past, I am in no way responsible for them. Why should I pay for what some far of descendant did?

What's more, the way immigration in America is, most of the population's ancestry wasn't even in the US when all this shit happened. I mean, I know that during the colonial America period, on my mothers side my family was German royalty, and my fathers family was split between people in Scotland and people spread throughout modern-day Scandinavia. Many blacks in America aren't direct descendants of slaves at all, more often they are a blend of blood from the middle-east, Africa, Australia, India, South America, and even American-Indian.

Also, American whites aren't the sole perpetrators of such crimes. The way education is set up in America, coupled with our obvious prior involvement in these sorts of things leads many to believe such. Realistically though, pretty much every race on the planet (including the Africans) have oppressed another race for self-betterment. It's human nature to form bonds with those like you and ostracize if not dominate those different from you.

What about all the other stuff they fought for in the civil rights movement? This stuff isn't as old as you think it is. It's not just about slavery, it's about everything that came with being black in racist america. Sure there were people who refused to own slaves back in the day, but it didn't mean it didn't exist. Same now...there are racists that still lead this country. Take that little "innocent" joke the Republican Party made about Obama....if he moves in, is it still called the "white house"...

No offense, and I respect you because you show a great deal of though in your posts, but the people who make such big deals out of jokes like that are the ones who cause the problems - that's were this whole thread started right?

And even more, in the people who take these specific examples and apply them to everyone (read: stereotype), further the problem as well. Every Republican didn't endorse those badges, and I'm sure A LOT of them are/would be disgusted with them.

Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with the badges on a racial level (it's a joke, it it really offends you, spend a week in some of Haiti's slums and report back if you don't get hacked up on the street with a machete), but I do think it is immature and a poor representation of the Republican party. I think that it is a free country though, and if some knucklehead vendor with a few grand to spare wants to sell them at the convention, nobody has a right to stop him.

If you are white, you will never understand it. If you are an outsider like me, you STILL won't understand it, but it might be easier. Don't judge them until you have lived in their shoes, in their color. Hatred is pased on from generation through generation and it hasn't been that long since blacks were still inferior legally.

I think that's a little bit much to say. Like I said earlier, Americans aren't the only ones who have done horrible stuff like this. The Jews in WWII come to mind, but don't forget the British and Indians, the British and Chinese, the Apartheid, the French and Spanish in South America, the Russian's in post-WWII/Cold War...I mean, the list of horrible oppressions goes on in on. Relatively speaking (and again, not trying to justify or approve), the African slaves in America had it pretty easy. And the blacks during the civil rights movement had it way, way easier (I mean, come on, in some countries the rights they were fighting for don't even exist for anyone!).

My point is, if we went by race, pretty much anyone on the planet could expect repayment for some atrocity committed years and years ago. The truth is though, the only people who can understand it are the ones who have directly experienced it. These people are few and far between, and certainly do not constitute the major modern activist parties who always want something given to them to 'even' things up.

Take a read through any group like NAACP and MEChA and the likes. They don't exclude any race from joining. They just suggest you support the cause.

Both you and me know that just because a party doesn't explicitly deny entrance to a given race/class/etc doesn't mean it isn't slanted. While ideally the NAACP isn't that bad, they seem to act as more of a Communist/Extreme-Left wing front than anything else. However, I don't really follow them, so don't quote me on that...

I don't see it because I read rules and bylaws and understand them. My color has nothing to do with it.

I think generally speaking he is right. Affirmative-Action alone shows that society considers minorities, on an individual level, inferior, and that the majority (upper-middle class white male) should be handicapped duly. Racism is perhaps not the best word, but it's the same principle that applies.

Also, he said perspective and background, not color. From what you have said thus far it is clear that you do not see how white's can be punished just for being white.